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hey, simply use smolt! fedora has done a great job, suse11 is going to use it, too. so why not ubuntu? share one simple database, so that every hardware vendor could benefit from it...
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vintik
wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 15:56
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rainforest12, would you care to add a new idea to use smolt?
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Uzuul
wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 17:21
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Here is the partial result of my thinking as an upstream developer and a member of the Debian HWDB effort (mostly inactive). Note that it's a mail I've posted this to Malc Yates. It's lengthy but worth the cost ;-)
I hope (and I'm sure) this will help you.
So I'll first only send the below "raw" ideas. If you have some spec
to comment / complete, and want to discuss these a bit, well you know
how to reach me ;)
If you want me to develop some points, don't hesitate to tell me so...
I'll also try to start answering your question: how to make it more
attractive / valuable / rewarding ?
1) General consideration on other efforts
----------------------------------------------------------
I'll not develop much on the need of an HWDB, but more on why other efforts [1] have failed so far.
The general reason is simple: they have not applied the FLOSS rules to this area.
I mean that the best basic source of info _is_ the upstream project.
For example, NUT can provide UPSs compat. info, so as to (soon) LIRC for remotes, LP for printers, SANE for scanners, alsa for soundcards,
...
We should use these when they exist, or help the upstream project to create it if possible.
This would massively fill the DB, with accurate info. And such a mechanism would not be hard to develop, though I don't volunteer for obvious reasons ;)
2) the DataBase model
----------------------------------
there should be 2 main types of hw:
- Devices (ie UPS -> MGE Protection Center), which are
internal/external hardware pieces.
- Systems (ie Laptop -> hp dell latitude D600), which are made of peripherals
3) the support levels (from the lower to the higher)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
- project: reported by (or auto acquired from) the upstream project
- community: reported through the current (but enhanced) ubuntu mechanism.
Maybe add some online method, using the standard accounts, and
adapting the support level to the "rank" of the submitter (anonymous
is very low while an ub devel would be higher)
- certified: an Ubuntu hw partnership exists
This might be extended like: http://www.mandriva.com/hardware/results
I think that unsupported hw must be listed for ub users to avoid buying such things.
I'm not sure about the order, nor exact level list yet.
4) Beautifications
-------------------------
- the Device page should be linked to the PTS (ex: for UPSs -> NUT package page), via some Software entry. The software version must be mentioned.
- use debtags and dependencies to propose the right software. Ex for scanners: SANE for the backend, and install gnomescan (when avail ;) for ub, kooka for kub, ...
- the support level should be identified by a specific picture (like the ones in the mandriva link above)
- a certified Device should be linked with its Manufacturer Ubuntu entry (a page describing the Manufacturer and its commitment to ub, like in PRs, with some pictures)
This page can then be linked from the mfr website
- integrate a picture of the hardware (don't know how to automate it!)
- link to the manufacturer tech spec and documents
- link to an installation howto (ubuntu forums)
- maybe use the CNR mechanism for direct
it's very rough, but I have many ideas to lay down, and not much time to architecture all this. I'll however be glad to complete any lp spec.
tell me what you think about the above.
cheers,
Arnaud
--
[1] The existing (but mostly dead / empty / without future) HWDB efforts
FSF: (can't find it back)
Debian: http://alioth.debian.org/projects/hwdb/
Mandriva:
- old: http://www.mandriva.com/en/hardware
- new: http://hcl.mandriva.com/ & http://www.mandriva.com/en/hardware
SuSE/Novell: http://www.novell.com/partnerguide/section/446.html
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rvalles
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 00:07
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Also, it'd be really helpful to have a user-friendly tool that listed the hardware ubuntu is running on and provided links to the hwdb.
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This is also a big problem for me with my MacBook, the wireless drivers I use are madwifi which I had to compile and install myself, but a lot of the time they'll just stop working and I have to reboot to fix it.
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ubuntiac
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 03:22
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Come on people!
Smolt is developed, supported and doing well *right now*. They've approached Ubuntu people already asking to co-operate. Suse and Fedora are both using it. It's private and automated.
Yes, choice is wonderful, but so is getting the best result for *everyone* by focusing our efforts together.
This is also why I'm recommending it here rather than as a new idea as it's pointless to split the "Smolt" votes from the "we need a better HWDB" votes. Simple answer, we need to use Smolt *as* our better HWDB.
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Design a hardware utility that after install people can open under the system tool and they can rate their system with model number and have the utility automatically pull specs. Say that someone buys a new lenovo x60 they can say what ports and what buttons work out of the box.
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doctormo
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 04:43
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Oh come on! I've been making dohickey client and server for so long with zero community help. I've come to the realisation that the community doesn't want hardware information because it simply doesn't want to help create such a resource.
I wouldn't hold smolt up to much either, hardware databases must have user entered information otherwise your always going to split the efforts of users.
Being able to _see_ HARDWARE instead of DEVICES has been a long personal programming struggle; and now that most of the logic is sane I'm getting ignored.
http://dohickey.parsed.net/
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jander99
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 05:03
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Also check out the smolt project that fedora uses for its hardware. I believe they are looking to add more distributions to their list.
http://smolt.fedoraproject.org/
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Vadim P.
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 05:21
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There's also ubuntuhcl.org.
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I'm tired of loading every new Ubuntu, only to find it STILL doesn't detect and operate my dual monitor video card.
so... that computer has to have windoze.
this computer, however, has one monitor and Ubuntu 7.10 :)
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A better configuration with a more than 3 buttons mouse
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jiu
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 12:39
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I haven't checked what the hardware database has but I've been looking for just this before and didn't find it. I think it's important to publicize it well (ie on ubuntu's front page), something like "about to buy a new machine?" check how well it can run Ubuntu" or sthg
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Such as, when you put in your Ubuntu LiveCD in Windows (or when fully rebooted into the LiveCD), it will pop up and say "Your _____ is not supported. Ubuntu will still run fine, but you may loose some functionality."
Seems sort of silly and a waste of programming to me. It'd be better if they worked with vendors to fix the problem than to waste time on advising the user like that.
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It would be great if
#1 there were a tool on my Ubuntu desktop that enable me to collect all hardware information from my machine at once and then submit it to launchpad.
#2 there was a way to reference this hardware profile when reporting bugs.
It would make the lives of bug reporters easier as:
#1 Even unskilled people could collect the info.
#2 The info would only need to be collected once. So bug reporters would not have to repeat the same steps over and over again for each HW bug they report.
It would also make the lives of bug fixers easier as:
#1 Launchpad could enable them to query each bug report for affected hardware.
#2 There would be more such information available because it is not such a pain in the ass of the bug reporters anymore.
Find more detail at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/1497/ and in launchpad bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/malone/+bug/3382/
We should possibly merge these two ideas! And therefore get more votes!
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Look at my idea about the survey utility!
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Average Joe does not want to browse a site. Give him a CD to boot from and that tests everything and tells him in plain ENGLISH what will work and what will not work.
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Arnaudus
wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 22:06
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I don't post that as a new idea, but if someone thinks it's worth, please do it. In most cases, one may fix a lot of problems by recompiling the kernel with the right options. However, this is a tedious task, even for a medium advanced user. For sure, Ubuntu cannot provide as many kernels as computer configurations, however, Ubuntu could provide a config file for (almost) all of them!
Why not having a database for kernel configuration files, and provide a graphical tool to 1) find the right kernel configuration file (for instance : "Which kind of computer?" (ans: Laptop), "Which brand?" (and: HP), "Which model?", etc), 2) recompile the kernel from the source package, 3) make the .deb package, install it and reboot?
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How about making an windows/mac-app that checks if the hardware is supported by ubuntu? As the suggestion implies, it is afterall the users of other operating systems that we seek.
On a more ambitious level, you could make such an app, so that it lists the most common linux-systems support for the hardware.
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Please read this idea:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/item/2547/
The main goal should be the client interacting with the server. A browse-able website would be cool, but that is not the main point of the idea in my opinion. People need to be able to run the client, compare their results to the database, and have it tell them which hardware should work, what doesn't, and what the success rate for their individual devices are in the community. Each device would have a section showing comments, tricks, and updated info, all user contributed. Short of this, the database is just another database that nobody will use. Browsing a website should not be the primary method to determine whether or not your hardware will work.
Google the three clients that already exist:
Smolt, hwdb, dohickey
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leu
wrote on the 4 Mar 08 at 10:12
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Sorry, but I do not understand.
The work is already done. It just needs to be used and integrated into ubuntu.
Look here -> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/2374/
Use it and you have it !
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centx
wrote on the 4 Mar 08 at 23:52
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Personally smolt seem to be the one to add, sometimes its better to go with the flow and collaborate than going for what one mean is the so-called "ultimate" solution.
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>> sometimes its better to go with the flow and collaborate
And in a sense there is no reason why smolt data is wasted. It's just not a very good website, and no client integration. My point is that smolt doesn't at the moment fill the requirements.
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Printe
wrote on the 6 Mar 08 at 13:19
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One single HWDB would be great for these two additional reasons:
1. One single point to check to see, if the new hardware I would like to buy has any issues. Right know there is too many hardware black- and whitelists around that you need to check. Unifying this knowledge into one would make hardware buying decisions so much easier!
2. This may increase pressure on HW vendors.
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Why not work together with the other big and small distributions? smolt, suse hardware db...
Distributors should really start working together here!
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Yes, we need this. I am just considering a Laptop and found linux-laptop.org. A great resource, so I can really know what I have to expect BEFORE I buy a laptop and shun a specially nasty and Linux-ignorant OEM.
But in many other areas, it is a pain. You can never tell, if (and to what degree) it will work.
A realistic DB would help, showing what works perfectly, what works more or less and what fails totally.
(with grades, so you can tell which Manufacturers do not provide and help for OSS driver development and do not provide any drivers whatsoever for Linux)
How about a command like lspci that will go look up in that database and tell you if that device will work and with which kernel/module release?
First command line and then integrate it into a GUI, the Hardware browser (hal device manager or such)
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jepong
wrote on the 24 Mar 08 at 06:25
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I have an IBM ThinkPad R30 (2656-40J), I envy OpenSuse 11 Alpha 3 when I tried it last week. It detected my system as 'IBM ThinkPad R30' and loaded its driver (except the sound, hey! its still alpha 3) and works great.
Hope Ubuntu can work on like this.... Ubuntu 8.04 Beta LiveCD detected my ThinkPad video resolution to 800x600 which it should be 1027x768 atleast.
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For a hardware database like this, it would be great if there were some way to associate bugs and hardware issues with specific initiatives and get a sense for how important they are to how many people. For example, trouble with a wireless card is a big deal for a laptop user, and would be tied to any laptop support initiative. Likewise, support for certain RAID controllers might be tied to server support.
For myself, the bugs in the ATI proprietary drivers caused huge problems for my own laptop use. More importantly, it meant that I could not recommend Ubuntu to my friends, most of whom use laptops with ATI cards. I know this is really ATI's fault, but once they released new drivers, Ubuntu should have worked to include them in the current release.
Brainstorm is a great idea and the popularity of this hardware database idea makes it clear that lots of people care about hardware compatibility. It would be even better if we could get a sense of which issues affect the most people and which are dealbreakers for the most people so that the Ubuntu developers can decide where to focus their efforts.
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dmuir
wrote on the 18 Apr 08 at 04:37
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Oddly enough, the area where I've had the most trouble with linux has been with motherboards. I've tried installing Ubuntu on two different AM2 based Gigabyte motherboards. On one, it would run only if I turned off apic, which I wasn't happy doing. The other refused to load Ubuntu no matter what I tried.
Oddly enough, the only OS I got working at first on that first mobo was Vista... (then after a BIOS update, got XP running)
Instead of having a hw database of stuff that does work, we should instead have a hw database of stuff that doesn't work, or has reported issues. This would make it much easier for manufacturers to know which products are causing issues, and nothing makes a company move faster than negative press :-)
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I didn't know this idea:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/9196/
whas a duplicate of this one.
But I will try to put my ideas here also....
I think the site should have ubuntu look and feel. Simple and easy on the eyes like launchpad...
The site should focus in the social thing...
I think a website like that should be well promoted and strongly supported by canonical, so everyone would know about it and get information from it about drivers, how ubuntu goes with that specific laptop or PC, how to solve certain problems, and things like that. Knowing the site people would also feed the site with information. The information would be in one place. Faster and easier to search and get it. And to update!
It would be all about collaboration and social!
And maybe everyone could have their profile with picture, contributions, doubts, and answers.
Something near Yahoo answers, quite different from launchpad answers, but a lot better than Yahoo answers because it would be more like a wiki.
Maybe it would seems more like posting in a blog/twitter than editing a wiki. But the principles and ideas of collaboration in a wiki would still be there! Something that every user could be able to use/edit/help.
The idea is not just providing information about the hardware, but allowing user to discuss about it, showing workarounds, explanations, solutions, news about the specific hardware and people could subscribe to it too the specific driver/hardware too (maybe through Atom/Rss or e-mail), or maybe some alert program on desktop.
And to not scary people who make blogs about ubuntu tips, most of them help/helped a lot newbies like me and it could provide tools for them to post solutions/tips on the site but still associated with their site, providing links, feeds, or maybe a lot better thing that nobody have thought about yet..
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Clearly something is broken:
------
Ubuntu hardware database
Submissions Total: 983605 Today: 777379
Page autorefresh: every 10min
Error !
please contact hwdb@ubuntu.com
------
I can't preform a search and 777379 of the 983605 submissions happened today.
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i think Ubuntu or Linux should not write hardware drivers itself... instead, they should prepare platform for driver writers and hardware vendors...
you cannot handle all new devices by writing drivers yourself...
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I propose a tool which would identify all the hardware in a machine, test the key functions of each component, and then prepare a report to be sent to the HCL. This way, many more users could help to build and update the HCL. In fact, running this tool could be an option in the installation, just like the software popularity contest is.
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Endolith
wrote on the 17 Nov 08 at 23:43
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I'd like to be able to talk to other people who have my hardware, to see if things work correctly on their machines.
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jackflap
wrote on the 12 Aug 09 at 11:06
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We've built a proof-of-concept site called 'isitopen' which allows users to submit and rate devices based on a set of 'openness' criteria (i.e. source-code available, proprietary plug-connection, etc.)
http://www.isitopen.biz/
In the case of hardware-compatibility, it is natural to say that more 'open' devices will be more compatible with Ubuntu.
The site is still early alpha, and we're currently looking for some feedback on where to take it from here. Any comments/feedback would be appreciated.
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