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Idea #3575: Online Ubuntu compatible - PC Hardware Store
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Written by madjr the 6 Mar 08 at 17:49.
Category: Hardware support.
Related project:
Nothing/Others.
Status: New
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Rationale
An online Ubuntu PC hardware store is what people (aka "masses") need to fully make the jump to Ubuntu. Sell the hardware "known to work" (pre-installed Ubuntu computers and peripherals) and support those manufacturers who actually care about Linux compatibility.
when you purchase a Mac you know everything is compatible and everything you purchase at a APPLE STORE also is tested and works 100% with Mac OS.
but when you try Ubuntu on your own, there is always a risk that many of your hardware/peripherals may not work. The worst problem is YOU DON'T KNOW where to Purchase compatible hardware to FIX your problem.
If you can't fix your problem, then you are back once more in Windows... (be it a dialup modem, Usb modem, wireless card, bluetooth, printer, scanner, videocard, webcam, etc)
you always have the community to help + the guys at http://www.phoronix.com/ have always pitched in this area, but is not enough.
We need 100% Ubuntu compatible and tested hardware by canonical themselves to be sold online. Only sell what works (there is no need to test all the hardware in the world)
this would create a real market demand for "Linux compatible" hardware from manufacturers.
we can't support every piece of hardware like we have been doing, we need to support what WORKS NOW!
If this is implemented a few other good things will happen:
1- Less forums posts like these: "i can't get XXXX hardware to work, why doesn't it work! i got working hardware in windows or mac, ubuntu sucks blah blah"
2- Easier migration to ubuntu and better first experience. Just like the feeling i had when i purchased my Dell inspiron 1420 with ubuntu pre-installed... everything worked "out of the box" amazing !
3- A mindset to Think about Ubuntu compatibility first before making a purchase (thus even less frustration and repeated forums posts once again).
4- Interest in HW manufacturers to develop easy to install drivers for Ubuntu. 1 click install packages.
5- Will speed up Ubuntu development and adoption
6- to many other things to list :)
The potential market for Linux is HUGE.
Promote compatible hardware for the masses. Similar to what consoles try to do or the success of Apple with its "Mac experience"
The user friendly "Hardware + software combo" experience is simply not there.
ps.
people keep mentioning a wiki, well we already have had one of those in place for years (hasn't really helped much as it's incomplete, hard to follow, outdated and forgotten.)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport/
in fact canonical already has a certification system, but only for complete systems not peripherals...
http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/
so where to get working peripherals? since we don't count with a HW store, you will have to research this yourself and resolve it on your own (if you are lucky).
While Windows and Mac users have it easy, we don't...
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Propose your solution
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Comments
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XSP
wrote on the 6 Mar 08 at 18:09
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Considering that the kernel breaks some hardware while it fixes others in some cases, it would be incredibly hard to maintain such an online presence. There is no guarantee that things will always work which is why a certification program will not work. Besides that, hardware manufacturers aren't all that concerned about support Linux. They go where the money goes, and unfortunately, that is Windows.
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madjr
wrote on the 6 Mar 08 at 18:30
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Maybe i shouldn't had even mentioned the certification program since it's not the real purpose of this idea.
what i care about is finding compatible hardware fast and easy to buy to use with my ubuntu.
The Canonical PC hardware store is the way to go.
Apple did the right thing with the APPLE STORE.
instead of trying to support every hardware in the world (uphill battle), we need to support what works now !
this is why APPLE and gaming consoles are so successful, 1 compatible hardware for the masses.
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Do you mean an online store that sells hardware that is KNOWN to be compatible with Ubuntu?
That would work, but what else would work is a "Ubuntu Certified" which I think Canonical and vendors are working on.
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Rather than investing a huge amount of time testing every device and then setting up a store to sell everything ... what about picking and choosing stuff to sell? Pick one from each category to "throw your weight behind".
Yes, updates may break something. That sucks; but if people are being pushed to one device at least it'll be a well-known issue (discovered in testing) or will be prioritized to get a resolution.
If enough people are gunning for the same pieces hardware, maybe vendors will perk up and pay attention. Something like that may get dicey down the road with vendors crying that their product works and isn't on the list ... ... but we should have such problems :)
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I believe this is a MUST if people are going to take linux as a desktop platform seriously. Otherwise it's just looks like an EFFORT to be significant. If we have a list of hardware that people know will run ubuntu, they can take it seriously as a desktop OS much like people do with MacOS. We have to ensure users that ubuntu is serious, and is in for the long haul. That it means to be the best experience possible on a desktop.
Everyone understands that Mac doesn't support that much hardware, but if you buy it from Mac, you know it will work. Nobody expects a brand new raid card that's only been on the market for a month to work on a Mac, and they shouldn't for Ubuntu either.
Bottom Line: Give a list of compatable hardware that fits the needs of desktop users on ubuntu, and possibly a way to buy it from ubuntu or their affiliates.
I think my stance on this is correct. I'm a very adamant ubuntu user with a lot of non-nerdy friends, and I think we all see eye to eye on this point.
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this is definitely not a priority. ubuntu should eventually increase its number of supported hardware, specially new devices.
there should be a "works with ubuntu" program and put ubuntu on most cheap laptops/desktops to make it the linux standard, increase market share and then it will be able to look face to face to windows and mac.
lets leave the rest to the free market, and allow companies to create strategies of offering products that work with ubutnu and so on, but canonical should not get involved in it.
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I like this idea not only because of the obvious help it would give to end users, but it could allow ubuntu/canocle an added source of income. I certainly wouldnt really mind paying $5-10 more for a webcam that I trust works and can help support them in the process.
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madjr
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 03:39
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@ubunteando
"there should be a "works with ubuntu" program and put ubuntu on most cheap laptops/desktops to make it the linux standard, increase market share and then it will be able to look face to face to windows and mac."
it will even harder for canonical/ubuntu/linux, the way you propose it.
We can't increase marketshare unless we use the same strategy as Apple.
Windows and Microsoft are dominant in this area. All the hardware works with them because of their monopoly.
We are doing it wrong. We are trying to support ALL hardware manufactures without them supporting us... this is the biggest error ever. We need to support only those that really support linux and are willing to work side by side with us.
We are trying to "conquer the world", but we haven't even conquered a small region...
Apple on the other hand, spends a lot less time and money trying to support hardware and more time developing their OS and polishing the user experience.
Linux is the last one lagging behind... But we can change this!
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takavar
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 08:33
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A community wiki maintained that lists all working hardware is better, instead of digging through forums, we might be able to organize such a wiki and everyone would be able to contribute on what works and what does not, so others wont's follow in case something doesn't work.
But then again, there would no significantly less feedback on what doesn't work.
Voted down.
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It is still good to have a list of "recommanded hardware".
I had a really hard time in Wifi on Linux for 4 years (that's ever since I try Linux). I couldn't tell which piece of hardware works on Linux and which doesn't. It's like a US$100 gamble each time and I lose my money several time.
I still sense that fear in me.
And that's why I fear to tell my friend to use Linux.
I want to have a certain hardware list that JUST WORKS with Ubuntu so I can buy appliances or gadgets confidently. It's best if the same listing site provides an online purchase channel that I can buy things right the way.
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azimout
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 09:31
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+1.
There are several advantages to this solution:
1) The added income for Canonical that was mentioned. A €5 higher price could be considered a contribution to the Ubuntu project.
2) The Ubuntu cd with each purchase would help spread Ubuntu (if i bought 4 pieces of hardware and got 4 cds with them, i would probably give away the other 3 to people who might be even slightly interested in trying it out). Besides, it would be a very concrete bragging point for us users: "What? You paid to get Windows? I get one copy of Linux with each hardware I buy!!!" :-)
3) This idea is complimentary to the "Ubuntu Certified" logo or the Wiki with supported hardware, and would give manufacturers solid numbers to look at (e.g. my competitor sold x units last year on the Canonical shop, and I lost this market share because I don't have linux drivers)
One thing that makes me a bit reluctant is that this might stretch the activities of Canonical too much (try to be too many things at once, and you're not good at any of them). You might want to let them focus all their resources on improving the OS...
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good thing to do.
FreePenguin.it
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good thing to do.
FreePenguin.it
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+1
Fantastic idea, but it's not essential for this to be done by Canonical. If you're worried about Canonical stretching themselves too thin or exceeding their remit, then someone out there with a bit of business sense and some spare time (i.e. not me on either count) could set up such a store themselves and maybe get Canonical's blessing later?
Anyone could do it really, as long as they're prepared to do the testing themselves
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ampers
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 15:22
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I think the "certified to work with Ubuntu" is a good idea, and Manufacturers should be aware that Linux users will only buy kit that has been certified.
I also think that we need to get the message out to Windows users to ensure all kit they buy for their Windows machine will work with Linux so they won't get any nasty surprises when they get so sick of Vista that they may want to make the change. Now is the time to do that owing to the dissatisfaction out there.
I looked at Linux a few years ago, and couldn't be *rsed! Now I have come to the conclusion that I will not want Vista ever on my machine and that if this is the way Windows is going, will not want the next one either. So I am persevering. Fortunately I learned on DOS so am not alarmed at the Command Line.
When I have a little spare time between appointments I pop into a computer store in London's West End and ask to see expensive top of the range Notebooks. After spending some time with the salesman I say "Yes, this is the one I want, but it must have the Linux operating system on it." When told it doesn't come with Linux I say, "Ah, OK thanks, but I don't use Windows." And leave the store.
If every Linux user did that, maybe stores will look for favourably at Linux? I am not sure, but what I am sure of is, it's worth the try.
I think the basic difference between Windows users and Linux users is one of optimism. Windows users are optimistic, they have to be!!! Linux users will decry every attempt do increase perception so is that being pesimistic, or do many want to keep their warm cosy club going? Fortunately, Ubuntu have created a more optimistic group of people so now I have very high hopes for Linux. At least in the Ubuntu field.
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erlguta
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 16:31
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Like says ubunteando i think this is not the market of canonical.
To make canonical to be one hardware vendor implies a lot of $$$ and it can't be done from one day to another.
I think there should be one compromise with a few vendors to certificate the systems...like with Dell or System 76 and bet on them.
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madjr
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 17:30
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@takavar
A community wiki maintained that lists all working hardware is better, instead of digging through forums, we might be able to organize such a wiki and everyone would be able to contribute on what works and what does not, so others wont's follow in case something doesn't work.
But then again, there would no significantly less feedback on what doesn't work.
Voted down.
////////////////
there is already a community wiki. Barely usable.
yea it has some "seems to be working" hardware listed, but where can i purchase that hardware ?
the problem with the wiki is:
-Things seem to work, but not everything is fully tested (most entries are incomplete and no way to contact the author of the entry)
-No guarantee to know if that same hardware will work with future versions of ubuntu, since they stay Outdated for years. i.e: someone added an entry for dapper, but when i tried the same piece of hardware on gutsy it didn't work "out of the box" so i had to configure tons of stuff, even recompile the kernel.
-I don't know where to purchase it and fix my problem. Most of the time you can't find the same piece of hardware because is out of stock and no one has it (no demand). If canonical negotiate with certain manufacturers, am sure they would be able to keep a stock (similar to what Apple is doing).
-People need an official place to purchase compatible hardware and Canonical needs extra funds to speed up Ubuntu development and this would be a good source of income.
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madjr
wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 17:43
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@erlguta
i like Dell and system76, I've even purchased laptops and PCs from them.
but am speaking more about peripherals and add-ons:
dialup modems (both internal and external), Usb adsl modems, wireless cards, bluetooth devices, printers, scanners, videocards, webcams, etc.
most of the problems posted at ubuntuforums is about peripherals, people simply don't know what is compatible and where to purchase it.
Dell and system76 don't offer such peripherals, just complete systems.
People need an official place to purchase compatible stuff, just like Apple did for mac-OS, if we really want to increase market share and give a good user experience.
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ka2
wrote on the 8 Mar 08 at 00:14
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not a hardware store no.
just a self-certification system perhaps?
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madjr
wrote on the 8 Mar 08 at 13:09
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@ka2
once the hardware has been certified, where to get it ?
Canonical doesn't actually have to "re-sell" the hardware, just partner with those manufacturers/vendors and link to actual stocked items that are actually being sold.
being just an online reduces costs dramatically compared to the Apple stores.
Expanding the Ubuntu online store to include compatible hardware is a must. Certifying hardware might even be a bigger task than actually just selling it (non-brainer).
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noothe
wrote on the 12 Mar 08 at 12:52
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@reading this i have to think about my first try with linux (4-5 years ago i think). it was also the time of my first USB-mouse. beside of playing around with the xorg.conf (i found some tutorials on it, so it wasn't that much of a problem) i couldn't get it working whatever i tried.
as the frustration took over i took my mouse, went to the local computer store and asked the salesman if he had a 'linux-usb-mouse' for me. i would have paid anything for it, just to be sure it definitly is supposed to work.
nowadays i know that with enough time most things will work sooner or later (and way back than the fault was a defect USB-hub ^^ ), but the point is i KNOW i HAVE been thinking that way in the first month, and i think many people which try to switch to linux nowadays still feel the same.
because of that i fully support the idea (in fact both) of ubuntu-certificated hardware and a possibility to purchase it directly. especially when it comes to modems, webcames etc. people will buy what works (or what they think looks nice), there is enough variety of products to choose of
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Cybercod
wrote on the 14 Mar 08 at 07:39
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Canonical wouldn't have to do this themselves. They could partner up with a major online seller like Tigerdirect or Newegg and allow them to handle the Ubuntu Hardware Store. It would drive mass amounts of customers to an online vendor that is already equipped to handle it.
They could have a specific section of their site dedicated for Ubuntu users and the users themselves could suggest and add hardware that is sold on the rest of the site to the Ubuntu Compatible List. Ubuntu users could submit hardware that they got working as well as write reviews of how hard it was to get working, with perhaps a scale on how easy it was with the top tier being hardware that works out of the box.
Ubuntu didn't start selling desktops did they? No they partnered with Dell. They should follow a similar strategy in this, and all parties would benefit.
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I believe that it should be done, and it can be done. I'll vote this one up, since having a "Works with (Ubuntu) Linux" branding on whatever hardware I buy is rather reassuring.
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madjr
wrote on the 21 Mar 08 at 07:06
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@Cybercod
yes, that's the best scenario... but leaves very little control to what would be sold.
anyway, if canonical can't find a partner, they should do this themselves.
Dell sells pre-installed systems which is esier to do, but selling peripherals is another story.
For example:
anyone could sell mac books, not only apple, but for guaranteed and tested mac compatible peripherals the only place to get it is an apple store.
You should know that linux is not windows. We can't use the exact same strategies for hardware compatibility, Apple knew this before hand and thats why they have their own store.
this is why PCMAG reviewed Ubuntu as less compatible than windows or mac
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=724238
exactly we are always afraid of taking initiatives
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fluxy
wrote on the 24 Mar 08 at 16:30
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+1
The only problem is that an online store may have a limited reach - I myself live in Mauritius (Indian Ocean), and I don't think it will be worthwhile for me (shipping costs). I'd rather go for the certification programme. I've been wanting to buy a webcam but am not sure it works with ubuntu, it would be cool to have a little sticker on the box saying "ubuntu certified"...
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adrian2
wrote on the 7 Apr 08 at 12:24
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Scanning the comments above i've come to the conclusion:
If somthing is not done about letting people know which hardware to use and which not, than we might as well put a huge banner on the ubuntu website:
"ubuntu , for old hardware only, availible in second hand hw store near you!!"
While partnerships with hw companies are hard because of low profit margin for them are uncertain due to windows dominance, there can still be official hw configurations for desktops, and servers that support ubuntu diferentiated on cost, and destination.
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Yfrwlf
wrote on the 11 Apr 08 at 18:39
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Giving users some place to start, ANY place at all, for purchasing a Linux-compatible computer will help many users out there and will put pressure on hardware vendors. If not Canonical themselves selling them, at least have links to where you can buy hardware that works, today, with Linux. Right now the only computers available are pre-built ones from Dell, HP, and others, and even then they are extremely hard to find due to the licensing they have with Microsoft to promote their OS and downplay all other OSes.
Having a bigger selection of known Linux-supported hardware, plus a one-stop shop to go to for your Linux/Ubuntu needs, makes things much more consumer friendly for those wanting to try out Linux/Ubuntu for the first time as well as those sticking with it.
Again, Canonical doesn't have to sell it themselves, but them providing help on where you can buy hardware that works would not only be helpful for Linux/Ubuntu/Canonical but will support those vendors who support Linux and make them much more visible.
I think this should be a higher priority. Even just making a website similar to Brainstorm where users can rank hardware high that "just works" would be a step in the right direction. Just make it easy to use, like this Brain Storm site, and it'll get more attention than the stale wikis.
Why does anyone go back to Amazon for commenting on their experiences with the product and why do they rate the product? Because Amazon made it easy to do so. Make a ranking system with stars for how easy it was to get working or whatnot, and let users fill in the blanks.
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Kathaer
wrote on the 9 Jul 08 at 23:20
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I Absolutely Agree!
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Psy-Q
wrote on the 23 Sep 08 at 07:29
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Great idea, I had the same one last July :)
I've been working hard with suppliers since then, and I'm opening a store like that in a week, on October 1st. The store only sells to Swiss customers, since that's where my company is based and that's where I have access to suppliers.
I had the opportunity to try out this idea in a pilot test for about a year now. Demand was low, and we can't actually get Ubuntu certification for anything since the margins are so bad that we can't afford that. But on the plus side, this means that we're compatibility-checking all our hardware in-house, for many different distros (as well as FreeBSD/OpenBSD).
But it's not easy. Consider the fact that many brand-name PCs are equally expensive or more expensive to buy without an OS than with Windows, for example. Adware included with the Windows copy subsidizes the computer. You can't just ship homebrew no-name boxes, since some customers want three-year warranties, on-site repairs etc., this is what you need brand-name machines for.
With such a shop, it's impossible to compete with discount stores. The only way is to offer higher-quality components so that you have somewhere to make back the extra costs you have compared to a little Windows shop that can simply say "it's the manufacturer's/Microsoft's/your own fault" when something doesn't work.
The hardware you sell needs to be 100% compatible, so there is no way around your own compatibility testing. I give people a money-back guarantee if the hardware I sell them doesn't work, for example, and I also offer a "guinea pig special" on hardware I haven't tested personally yet. The new Centrino 2 platform laptops will all be discounted in that way, for example, since Intrepid will be the first release to have any chance to support that stuff.
I pick everything very carefully, so chances are that the worst type of "compatibility" is that you have to change a bunch of config files. That's what the guine pig special is for: These extra steps shouldn't be necessary. If they are, you get to keep what you bought at the special price, but I won't add that particular item to my stock anymore as it doesn't meet my quality standards. This way, customers help me keep my testing cost low and I let them know what they're in for, so it's not unfair.
Let me tell you that this is a very stony path to walk on, there is little money to be made this way as you will find absolutely no support from manufacturers. I believe my store is the first of its kind in the world, so there are many lessons to learn here, and I'm planning to make things as transparent as my contracts allow. If anyone wants to do the same or has done the same and would like to share experiences, I'm very interested.
The store will open at http://www.lincomp.ch, I hope it's OK to post the URL here.
That said, it's not all as bleak as it sounds and I'm very very very busily looking forward to the grand opening :)
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sisto
wrote on the 25 Oct 08 at 17:29
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Canonical could partner with System 76
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sisto
wrote on the 25 Oct 08 at 17:30
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...and sell System 76 hardware on their site.
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My preference is to cooperate with existing hardware-stores. Or better: get their hardware-lists of their home-page and check the compatibility on-the-fly.
First step is getting organised. The information about compatibility is scattered around the net, but can be brought together at one place. If that's done, just create a page or Firefox-plugin, where all the store's hardware is checked on a Hardware-compatibility.
Another thing to do is giving awards.
Check this out: http://www.europe.redhat.com/news/article/5.html
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