Propose your solution
Attachments
No attachments.
Duplicates
Comments
|
Dazed_75
wrote on the 28 Jan 10 at 22:10
|
|
|
Although I voted FOR most of this, I do have concerns.
I don't think this can work DURING installation [from a CD or most media] because all the alternatives simply do not fit on the media. That means that it could only succeed with access to the internet during the install which is not always available.
Making an install from media depend on internet access is a bad precedent AND will get negative PR.
Even if there were an option to make these choices during install w/o internet, the option to make such choices AFTER installation and including items for which internet access is needed would be a requirement in my mind. And maybe the better way to start. Keep installation in mind and design to provide it later.
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 29 Jan 10 at 14:10
|
|
|
In the mockup I wrote that you need an Internet connection to make changes to the standard programms (except for the 'none' option).
Without working Internet connection = standard Ubuntu installation
With working Internet connection = customized Ubuntu installation
If you want free software only or don't know what to do, just click 'Forward' and everything is till okay. In my opinion, it is better to have a choice than to have no choice!
|
|
|
libdvdcss is ILLEGAL in the United States, and many other countries. Ubuntu should not encourage people to break the law! This would totally undermine Canonical's ability to market Ubuntu to businesses.
As for configuring the software at the point of install, that would make it substantially harder for downstream distros that are based on Ubuntu to maintain their installer, as they would have to adjust it based on what packages they ship by default.
-1
|
|
|
http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/the-legality-or-illegality-of-w32code cs-and-libdvdcss2/
"libdvdcss is ILLEGAL in the United States"
It's still in limbo, only the courts can determine if it's use is illegal or not.
"Ubuntu should not encourage people to break the law!"
Martin Luther King Jr. used to encourage people to break the law, does this make him unethical?
"There are just laws and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all... One who breaks an unjust law must do it openly, lovingly...I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."
Patent infringement is also breaking the law, does this mean every time a case get's filed against a piece of software I should stop using it? At what point does this infringe on the users rights?
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 31 Jan 10 at 15:54
|
|
|
First, religious quotes don't bring us any further and, second, the USA are not the navel of the Earth. We should just look at the facts.
People want to be able to watch video/DVD movies on their PCs!
Because the required codecs is possibly illegal in some countries we have to keep it away from all other people – very logical!
Instead, it would be better, wouldn't it?, to give everyone a choice. For instance, a warning message could appear saying that use is possibly illegal in the selected country.
What does Linux Mint do correctly which Ubuntu does incorrectly?
When a user installs an OS, he expects simply to be able to see/hear images, music, videos and DVDs. This is possible straight away with Mint. This is why it is considered very user friendly. Ubuntu could also make progress in that area.
My idea (mockup) takes the legal concerns seriously and offers users the opportunity to make a simple decision. I, for my part, would wish to be able to choose between different options during Ubuntu installation!
This is what freedom is about.
|
|
Remco
wrote on the 31 Jan 10 at 18:37
|
|
|
What do you need proprietary fonts for? Websites and documents work without them.
Why install Flash, when the world is moving on to HTML5? Just install Gnash for those few remaining sites that don't update.
See the problem with suggesting proprietary software? People will be encouraged to install unethical software that they might not even need.
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 31 Jan 10 at 21:47
|
|
|
“What do you need proprietary fonts for? Websites and documents work without them.“
I do not need proprietary fonts.
“Why install Flash, when the world is moving on to HTML5? Just install Gnash for those few remaining sites that don't update.“
Surfing without Flash is like driving a car without air in the tires. Maybe in the near future HTML5 will replace most Flash applications (I hope so), but today most big websites use Flash (and not a few, as you said).
In the last few days it has become possible to watch YouTube videos though HTML5 but you still need proprietary codecs to do that (only Google Chrome and Safari have them). Last time I tried Gnash, it was a catastrophe (if it did work well, Linux distributions would come with it pre-installed). In the future, Google might release the on2 codec as open source, or videos might be available as Ogg Theora.
“See the problem with suggesting proprietary software? People will be encouraged to install unethical software that they might not even need.“
I agree with you that it would be better not to use any proprietary software but you can't really avoid it for the time being. Whether it is an e-mail from a friend with a YouTube link, videos from my own mobile phone or a news website with Flash. I have just read about an interesting documentary film (Moral Kombat) on a news site. Unfortunately, you can't watch the film without Flash. Should I give up watching it?
http://www.babelgum.com/browser.php#play/SEARCH_SIMILAR,clipID:4022951,includeC lip:true,order:MOST_RELEVANT/0,4022951
In a certain sense, proprietary software is unethical. Yet, as long as there is no practical alternative – and I really mean a practical, not a far-fetched solution – one shouldn't put so many obstacles in the user's way.
The first thing a user expects from his computer is that it works. Instead of burying one's head in the sand, it would be better to act according to these principles: “as much proprietary software as necessary, as little proprietary software as possible”. Radical solutions usually ignore the larger public – the normal person/PC user.
Small steps in the right direction will bring us to the goal.
Blockages are useless.
PS: I have long been waiting for the day when I can at last erase Flash from my computer.
|
|
eklem
wrote on the 2 Feb 10 at 12:52
|
|
|
Comment to Solution #3:
The legends should be type of application only. I guess that the user-focuse is Mail, Browser, Music Player, Video Player etc.
It will be easier to scan the info this way.
|
|
|
Comment to Solution #3:
Is it only a concept or in-development screenshot? Should I try to develop and contrib this?
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 2 Feb 10 at 21:54
|
|
|
@GamePad64
This is only a mockup (concept).
It would be great if you would have a go at developing it!
:)
@eklem
You're right, that would be better.
The idea was born within half an hour so that I guess there is scope for improvement (like #6 & #8).
|
|
|
...And more support for various Nvidia & ATI's His Radeon cards with the apropriate driver...
(5750 ATI Radeon)
|
|
saji89
wrote on the 3 Feb 10 at 19:19
|
|
|
|
Solution #8, should be applied to all entries..
|
|
|
|
Putting more stuff in the installer is NOT what we need. Default application should be configurable via the command line after the installation, in a way that can be scripted. a "default-browser-firefox" package that sets Firefox as the default browser would be a good solution. That makes it verifiable buy verifying the installed package.
|
|
LaMeR
wrote on the 6 Feb 10 at 16:43
|
|
|
I'm glad that this idea made it to be shown in popular ideas category. I voted for it and most of the improvement solutions as well, since I tried to propose similar idea (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/22624), but it was marked as a duplicate possibly because of solution 6 to this idea: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/22563 (and there may be more).
Anyway, I think that it just shows, that people really would like to be able to configure what apps are installed by default and this idea managed to deliver nice and clear mockup, which perfectly illustrates the problem.
So thanks to Klau3:).
|
|
|
faldegast-
i see one issue with your argument. this is ubuntu, not slackware. it is supposed to be easy to use, not a command-line only hell for a noob. if it were something hardcore like crux, etc., then you would be right. but it is not, so i disagree.
|
|
eklem
wrote on the 7 Feb 10 at 15:29
|
|
|
@Faldegast and @ratdude747
Could a joint solution be to have easy access to this window/app after installation? So, no more stuff in the installer, and no hard-to-grasp commandline stuff for noobs...
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 9 Feb 10 at 18:58
|
|
|
My thoughts to #14:
I don't think this is such a good idea because Ubuntu ≠ Windows.
As far as I could observe, beginners have trouble in making the difference between both operating systems.
The first “real contact“ with the system takes place when the user tries to install new software for the first time and notices: “Oh, Ubuntu is really different”. I find this realization very important. On the other hand, if it was possible to install an .exe-file with a double click, the learn effect would be lost. Another problem would probably be that many users would complain about the bad performance of their Windows software under Ubuntu :D
It would probably be better to proceed as follows:
After a double click on an .exe-file, Ubuntu opens a Wine infobox instead of the archive manager. The infobox should be comprised of three parts – one above the other:
Short explanation about what Wine is.
Short explanation about what Wine is capable of.
Short explanation about how to install software under Ubuntu – link to the Software Center.
Button -> “Install Wine and the selected program”
As I have already written several times, this is only my humble opinion on this issue. I'm happy to see that there is a certain interest in the original idea.
I'm looking forward to further discussions and exchanges of opinion.
Klau3
|
|
|
A@Klau3
That's a great idea. Really ANYTHING involving the slight mention of WINE would be nice. I think it's very ignorant of distros not to inform users during/after install that they have this option. I'm tired of people being excited about using Ubuntu but freaking out when they realize that they have to poke around in this alien operating system to get their old MS apps to work. I've decided to stop recommending Ubuntu to non-tech users where I can't set it up myself because I'm tired of recommending Ubuntu and they dump it because of frustration in finding wine and installing. I don't think it's hard, but it's a waste of time to make them dig around at winehq.
Or Ubuntu needs some magic way to land some game/app ports. Which sadly I doubt will happen anytime soon. Although I would prefer native apps, like Valve's interest in porting their games to linux:
http://www.valvesoftware.com/job-SenSoftEngineer.html
Why should we be so stubborn? It's obvious this would lead to more users, which would increase more non-open developer interest.
|
|
|
I just looked though all mentions of WINE on this site and all I see are negative votes. This is suicide. Seriously, why can't Ubuntu even mention this important package that's been in it's repositoies for a while now. Of course there will be need to mention of WINE's sometimes sub par performance. I'm all for that. I don't like running Windows apps on my pc. But other than my PS3, my PC is good at playing Doom 3 and Frozen Bubble. I like Frozen Bubble, but I can only play that so many times.
This is causing more and more users to dual boot. As for the quality of WINE, it would greatly improve if more people use it. I also read of ideas to integrate WINE as an installation standard. This is a bad idea, that's not what I mean. I just think there should be more mention of WINE. So although I like Mark Shuttleworth's opinion of a WINE-free OS. I just think they'll have to convince some non-open devs to write games/apps.
|
|
jjchico
wrote on the 10 Feb 10 at 15:42
|
|
|
@justintime03_2,
Offering wine to newcomers will make the illusion that they will be able install and run common windows applications in Ubuntu painlessly: MS-Office, IE 8, games, BIOS flash utilities, etc. which is not true. They will be quite frustrated if they try. That's why I think that offering wine as an install option is not a point.
If your grandfather need to use MS-Word on wine you cannot simply say: "Just select WINE during installation and insert your MS-Office install CD". You will probably have to tinker with your grandfather's computer for some time to get it working (partially). The less problematic part would be just doing "apt-get install wine".
If your friends really need access to their windows applications when using Ubuntu to avoid reboots (they own a windows copy then) advice them to install VirtualBox. They will be much more happy.
Suumary: wine rocks, but it is not an install option for a novice.
|
|
Redge
wrote on the 10 Feb 10 at 18:53
|
|
|
|
It has been said that most users cannot tell a browser from an email client. A menu like this, though well intended, would scare of new users. Experienced users would be able to change settings themselves. It is not necessary.
|
|
|
|
I think this is a very misguided idea that will introduce an unnecessary degree of complexity to an otherwise very effortless install process. Choice is good, but people who don't want to use the defaults can always change them later.
|
|
|
@jjchico
Yeah, you're right about the confusion and frustration that this would cause. I've seen alot of people try to download/install .EXE apps to find that it just opens Archive Manager. I think it should at least mention something other than confusing users with the archive manager. Virtual Box would be nice, but it can't be used to play Direct X based games. I think you're right though, this isn't something to throw into Ubuntu. I guess my point kind of labels me as Captain Obvious: We need more closed source games. As for apps like Microsoft Office and iTunes, I think we can do better with open source. But games are meant to be closed so the developers get paid for making these multi-million dollar games. Maybe Ubuntu would get more commercial apps once OEM's get tired of Microsoft's royalties, which seems to be drawling near. Who knows. Maybe a New User guide would be handy to some users.
|
|
pt123
wrote on the 11 Feb 10 at 01:36
|
|
|
This is a very bad idea. The big problem with previous Linux distributions (before Ubuntu came on the seen) where you had to configure the applications you wanted installed.
Ubuntu came along and made the installation procedure simple and it filled on ONE CDR.
|
|
|
|
The installer can check the internet connection by pinging Ubuntu servers and refreshing apt cache while on the first steps.
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 11 Feb 10 at 11:23
|
|
|
@pt123
Before Ubuntu came on the screen, was picking applications as easy as proposed in the mockup? I don't think so - I believe the former Linux distributions were miles apart.
----
About the other criticism about using PPAs and that Canonical has no control over it - I don't see the problem. When you install e.g. Flash, Opera..., Canonical has no control either.
|
|
arophous
wrote on the 12 Feb 10 at 12:56
|
|
|
|
Internet connection is such a common thing why not allow network installs for software. Just give users a default 'on cd' option in case a network is not available and can change it later should they wish to. Or even include a 2nd cd with software packages similar to other distros but optional. They have to get the software from online eventually...
|
|
|
Solution #14
to big file, bad ethics/moral
|
|
|
This is not a general purpose, flexible solution.
Anything that increases steps needed to install increases the amount of labor to test.
|
|
|
Franckly I don't think ubuntu should (and will) propose to install propriatary softwares like chrome when we don't need them at all.
Ubuntu's goal is partly to encourage the use of free softwares. It only contains non-free softwares when there are no alternaves and when we realy need it to make the system fully usable.
|
|
|
One of the reasons casual users like GNOME, and by extension Ubuntu, is that it doesn't insult or confuse them by putting myriads of crazily complex options beneath "advanced" menus.
I can also see this creating a misconception that Ubuntu's default software is somehow locked in when you first install it and can no longer be changed. (It sure looks that way to me; why else would it need a feature like this?).
|
|
|
|
nhandler - Please replace the very large image you have inserted in this post with a thumbnail/link. You are borking the page layout.
|
|
|
Mods - 19 is not a solution and should be removed.
guigui14100 - Could you add NOT to one of your lines so I can figure out which you are promoting. As it stands I cannot guess which you want and which you don't want.
|
|
sandys
wrote on the 17 Feb 10 at 01:07
|
|
|
As part of this enhancement, I would like to make "games" install as opt-in (rather than always install, as it is now).
I dont see why games are a mandatory part of an OS install - Windows has done it, but there is no reason why. Who answers the question, which games ?
As part of Ubuntu Software Center - a person has the choice to pick and choose games. One should eliminate all games from a default install.
|
|
|
@Klau3
brilliant! I'm glad to see this in development. I don't think WINE should be integrated into Ubuntu, which is why this is great. Because some people do need to use games and other non-linux apps with Ubuntu. As I've already stated I'd rather see linux ports, but that won't happen anytime soon unless OEMs dump Micro or if developers can somehow see how many people use (or try to use) their apps/games with WINE. I think it's all about demand. Which could be high. So I agree with this as long as WINE isn't included on the disk, but rather have a linked installer to the package manager to install through the repositories. Ubuntu=Linux=Open Source=Freedom of choice. Plain and simple. Thanks Klau3!
|
|
andbia
wrote on the 17 Feb 10 at 09:47
|
|
|
|
This is perhaps the single most interesting idea i ever seen here on brainstorm! The biggest annoyance with ubuntu (IMHO) at the current state is that it contains 75% of software i don't use or like.
|
|
|
Against: #1
It should not be so many sites in the install. The install should be simple and fast.
There is little benefit in installing programs while on the install cd,
you need internet access to install or the file size becomes giant. (then they have to remove hardware drivers!? or something)
the install would take longer time,
- because you have to download and install.
- you have to click next
- because the image cannot be pre compiled
- or if it is pre compiled it need to remove current program and then install the new one anyway
I don't want a reminder of the windows install with 14 sites which i have to click next on during install.
It will take ages programming and testing this
Ubuntu aims to be available for anyone everywhere. Manipulating those programs to install, and encouraging instalation of propetary software like restricted extras, might be legal in Europe but nor China/(some states)USA. Restricted extra is blocked from many networks, might result in crash.
I know im getting killed by noobs by saying this but look at the idea..
This sounds like a thing that belongs in some Derivative somewhere, super Ubuntu or some other over loaded .."#¤
|
|
|
Easing Codecs rights purchase.
Of course an immoral law has not to be abided by, but it doesn't follow that only perfect laws should be in force. The copyright laws, voted by democratic countries, and aiming at remunerating and encouraging innovation, could be different and better, but there is no serious reason to regard them as clearly immoral. Before copyright laws, in the past centuries, there were brilliant authors, philosophers, painters, composers, inventors etc. who lived poor. Was that better?
I think a good solution for Ubuntu would be to propose to the user, as MandrivaLinux does, to buy easily the right to use the needed Codecs. The reason should be clearly explained and the way to pay, easy (debit card, not registering to PayPal, which requires reading dozens of pages of conditions and wait the day after). This should be proposed both during the installation and after, in an easy accessible menu. For people who pay the support service from Canonical, this right should be included in the payment, to make it simpler. People who already paid for that (for instance because they are changing their OS or their computer) should have the possibility to reuse easily their right, without paying again.
|
|
|
Concentrating on one solution to each problem.
Since the resources are limited, giving the choice between several solutions for one task has the following consequences:
+ you get many buggy solutions to one problem, instead of one good solution;
+ some problems are not addressed at all.
To give a more explicit example, we have the choice between Gnome (Ubuntu), KDE (Kubuntu) etc., but there is zero solution proposed for multiseat installation (Well, there is a long procedure for experts, that I didn't managed to have worked on my computer, and, according to the forum, I'm not the only one.). Another example: we have the choice between several mailing softwares (Thunderbird, Evolution...) but Gnash is still not able to read many flashes found on the web.
I'd prefer that, instead of providing the choice to the users, Canonical make for us the good choice, and make our experience smoother than it is.
|
|
jward
wrote on the 22 Feb 10 at 19:16
|
|
|
In regards to the person who proposed a WINE install at the beginning. Personally, use a Windows OS if you want to use Windows software. The whole point of Ubuntu is to stop being reliant on Windows based software and instead encourage open source software.
If you want to use Wine, as far as I'm concerned you can find out online. The Linux community at the end of the day is trying to move away from the use of Wine.
|
|
jward
wrote on the 22 Feb 10 at 19:24
|
|
|
I personally think this is a good idea, but some reservations. If an application choice is enabled, what will this mean for the current meta packages included - for example, if a user dumps Evolution in favour of Thunderbird, will apt uninstall Evolution or leave it on the system taking up space but remove it's shortcuts and links?
I'm assuming we will have to break meta package design if we want to add "none" as an option (a proposal I agree with as I don't use any mail clients).
|
|
vs8
wrote on the 22 Feb 10 at 19:37
|
|
|
I like this idea,first of all, Ubuntu comes with lots of software that not everyone needs or uses anyway. So why install them?
I voted for Solution #4, just hide and tell people you need to know what you're doing and that they need a working internet connection to use it.
The Manual partition option already warns people that they need to know what they're doing. That keeps newbies and non-tech savvy people at bay.
I like it because I do lots of Ubuntu installations and the default Ubuntu installation has lots of useless crap that need to go.
|
|
|
I love this! Lack of something like this was one of the few reasons that made me take a break from linux/ubuntu.
Many dudes made new distros using other default software, that's just retarded.
There should be less stupid distros and people should be able to customize things easier / have freedom of choice.
I don't use firefox, I dont use a scanner, I don't use empathy (because it's lame), I don't use rhythmbox (because it's development is slow).
I use Google Chrome, Pidgin, Banshee and might even consider using the Gnome-player, that's actually a gtk+ interface for VLC.
I hope to see this in lynx or however is karmic+1 called :)
|
|
|
|
And I don't use an email client, I see that rather useless, especially considering how awesome is gmail + gears. So +1 for the "none" option. Cheers!
|
|
|
|
grandisima idea, no creo que dificulte el proceso, realmente lo unico que hace es ralentizarlo, el de instalacion claro, pero sin lugar a dudas en una gran idea para usuarios novatos y para evitar en el futuro conflictos con el tribunal de la competencia en europa
|
|
|
|
it's perfect idea. i hate firefox and evolution and very angry when see 'em on fresh installed system.
|
|
|
|
Solution #28 - it takes 2 days to spin the current isos. If you want customised images it will delay ubuntu releases with 10 days or so.
|
|
|
|
ubuntu is not adding libdscss2 or whatever because they want to sell the fluendo codec pack :P
|
|
|
|
This is not a general purpose, flexible solution.
|
|
Klau3
wrote on the 3 Nov 10 at 20:46
|
|
|
@mkp
Can you register software patents in your country?
if yes:
illegal
else:
good chance that you can use libdvdcss2
|
|
|
|
Excellent idea, just I personally do not believe that they will implement it, unfortunately. Does anyone know how to customize Ubiquity, so that we could do this?
|
Post your comment
|
