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Description
I had to generalize to keep the subject line short, however I'm noticing some very common trends on brainstorm as found on other internet forums (slashdot, digg, generic forums).
Especially via the comment system, we're rushing towards a scheme of developing "regulars" and people who dedicate themselves a bit too much to the preening of the system and micromanaging other peoples' ideas.
This is instead of simply allowing brainstorm to become an endless foundry for improvements.
Our comment format is starting to result in many people coming on trying to oppress ideas out of existence. No idea should have to suffer somebody's lack of sympathy or interest. It will eventually result in a gridlock of ideas as only the most mainstream will be promoted by cliques.
I don't know if this would require skilled moderation, applications for comment removal or if it would require an overall ***REDUCTION*** in functionality.
I myself have had people make the argument of:
o An idea not being valid because it could "take up mindshare" (which to me seems kind of vulgar in essence).
o Disagreement based on preference.
o Disagreement based on lack of endearment to the situation or criteria.
o Cited qualifications as a valid basis for reasoning.
This needs to be addressed lest we all be reduced to a mob of "citation needed" shouting snobs. I wouldn't be surprised if participation from both amateurs and professionals alike has been impacted by this sort of behavior if I'm encountering it now.
["I want my mom to feel welcome here"], but from what I've seen she'd be chased out by a bunch of neurotic self-appointed moderators.
Either way, we're headed for this on brainstorm and it would be foolish to think we're going to avoid the problem without trying.
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gazilla wrote on the 19 May 08 at 03:07
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When I first read your suggestion I imagined that your comments related to many ideas, submitted over time. Your entire gripe relates to a few comments posted to a suggestion about a *nix text editor, surely the subject to stir up the most religious fervour in the *nix world.
I don't doubt that code folding would be a nice addition to gEdit. Take it up with the gEdit maintainers and stop whinging when people offer you what, on the face of it, are good alternatives. You don't like vim or xEmacs. Fine. Ignore them. What does it gain you to argue with their proponents?
And, please, feel free to validate your position by voting down my one and only meager suggestion.
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oblique63 wrote on the 19 May 08 at 04:06
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gazilla,
I would have to disagree, it's not just about his idea being 'trolled', I have been a member of brainstorm since at least the first week it was up, and I too have been noticing an increase in 'snobby' comments and ideas... it is however, still a relatively minor issue here, but I dont doubt it growing to a full out problem by the time Intrepid Ibex is released, so this idea isn't without its merit...
that being said, I am not sure how the brainstorm team would manage to control these 'snobs'... the best we could do is possibly post a 'Code of Conduct' and warn/ban members who do not follow this policy...
It is still kind of a shame that you cannot really have a decent, civilized, and cooperating community on the internet anymore, but I guess thats just reality...
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gazilla wrote on the 19 May 08 at 05:18
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oblique63: I have been a Linux user since 1995, exclusively since 1998 and on Ubuntu since Breezy. And, when it comes to comments on sites like this, I've seen it all. There is no way to completely rule it out, nor should we. If you post onto any online forum you have to develop a thicker skin. There is ALWAYS someone out there with different view, and one has to just try and ignore the trolls. It is the only way to make them go away.
Not wanting to demean Omega in any way, I have to say that wanting Code Folding in gEdit is a "little" idea. It does not surprise me that it (the suggestion) becomes a target for trolls. Some will feel motivated to add comments like "why are you wasting space on Brainstorm on such a minor thing, just use [insert name of favoured editor here]".
Generalizing on Omega's suggestion for gEdit, I did a search and there are 44 different ideas that involve gEdit in some way. Roughly 30+ of those are looking for some added feature [or similar]. Most/all are not duplicates, they are just parts of a more encompassing idea that should be called [say] "Improve gEdit".
Brainstorm needs a mechanism to "roll-up" the "little" ideas into larger packages. Go have a look at the number of ideas that want to improve on Nautilus, F-spot, Compiz, etc. Trying to do this within the confines of the Brainstorm structure would [I think] be overly restrictive. What might help is if we could point all the related ideas to a page on the Ubuntu Team wiki. Hence...
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8605/
Voting on each little idea would still happen on Brainstorm.
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glotz wrote on the 19 May 08 at 06:12
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I think for brainstorm to be a success you need all levels of users, from experts to newbies. Everybody's entitled to an opinion. And you also need moderation. Nobody should be rude, it's very un-ubuntu.
There will be some horrible ideas. And there will be disagreement. And there will be the usual human group dynamics. That's for sure.
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jhoger wrote on the 19 May 08 at 06:22
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-1,NotAnIdea
You didn't actually suggest anything here, you just whined about other people (including me) making comments on your idea that you don't like.
Hey we all create ideas that get comments we don't agree with for one reason or another. Why should you be protected from that? Generally, I either ignore them if they are mixed in with comments I consider reasonable, I respond, or I update the description to make things clearer.
No one is chasing you out. Your idea is still there, and people will read it and the comments and make a decision. Trust your idea and hope that other BS users make a reasoned decision. That's all you can really do. Anything else is going to come off as whining. I try to keep it "on the merits" but you make it personal. And guess what... I don't think anyone should try to make some rule that would keep your from making it personal. That's your prerogative. It's supposed to be an open discussion system, after all.
FWIW, your idea would be better received as "add a comment moderation system."
But don't bother, because it would be a dupe.
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mac.ryan wrote on the 19 May 08 at 08:55
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I agree in the enunciation of the problem. This has been all the time the problem from any technology in which one-head-one-vote has been used.
This was the case with early search engines, for example. Google "fixed" it with pagerank.
The same principle (of "weighting" votes and comments) could be used here.
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Omega wrote on the 19 May 08 at 13:41
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For what it's worth jhoger is a classic example of this problem. You can follow his work here on brainstorm to get a good idea of what he's doing to systemize and micro manage other peoples' suggestions.
Much of his work focuses around downplaying people and telling them why they shouldn't have made a suggestion. It gets very wiki/bug-report system/diggey when people can do what he does.
Brainstorm will ultimately fail because of people like him.
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einalex wrote on the 19 May 08 at 14:09
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Perhaps there should be an karma system to cope with the problem. Start rating the commenters. The more karma you got the more weigth is behind whatever you do. Additionally one could add something like this:
++ : your comments start with + karma (only influences hiding/unhiding of comments, not your actual karma), your ideas get a little boost
+ : your comments start with + karma (...)
o : neutral, guess what
- : your comments start with - karma (the comments get hidden faster if people vote you down)
-- : your comments start with - karma (...), your ideas suffer a little reduction
---: you appear on the mods radar and get suggested for deletion
this doesn't suggest to have only 6 categories, there could be stages in between.
just an idea ;)
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jhoger wrote on the 19 May 08 at 16:35
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Omega, I'll comment since you continue to attack me personally. Brainstorm is doing just fine with people like me that leave constructive comments. Your whining, however, is the kind of thing that I think annoys people enough to stop coming back.
I welcome anyone to make serious criticism of my positions on ideas.
Omega, what do you think the comment system is for? To just come in and pat you on the back? If that were the case, the voting system would be entirely sufficient and comments wouldn't be necessary.
einalex, comment moderation is already a proposed idea. Seek it out and vote if you think it's a good idea.
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Omega wrote on the 19 May 08 at 23:49
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jhoger, your sardonic tone and condescending position is enough to prove this idea.
I was hoping you'd jump right into this like a dirty rag because you're continuing to exemplify the kind of behaviour that will oppress this community into little more than a forum of a few insular rings of thought.
To be specific to your fabrications (a continuation of your disingenuous attempts to ridicule me), I have suggested ideas, try re-reading my idea.
The best of which I think is a reduction of the amount of functionality found here.
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Auzy wrote on the 20 May 08 at 02:29
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Actually, I hate to say this, but Jhoger is right, this isn't actually an idea. It doesn't suggest any improvements, or ways to fix it. Its just a statement, nothing more, nothing less.
And again, his also right about ideas existing to try to rectify this (I posted some myself in the past).
But I do realise there is an issue where small groups are building up (which is why I suggested anonymity of comments in the past).
I have marked this -1 because as stated its not an idea. And when the developer conference is over, I would expect the mods to probably mark it as such.
I agree with some points brought up, but this actually helps nobody unfortunately.
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deadowl wrote on the 20 May 08 at 02:57
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Really, if I'm the 171th (lol) best idea contributor, I really don't think there's too much to worry about in terms of mobs at this point. The funpidgin mob was somewhat funny... omg... they're making pidgin autoresize the message box? This is a travesty of usability!!! The user should be in control of that.
What I thought from what they said?: Oh crap, I can't resize it... how am I going to type multi-line messages?
Until I realized that the message box resized itself for me. That's awfully kind of my software to do that for me.
Too bad there isn't a misleading button.
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deadowl wrote on the 21 May 08 at 05:04
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I have a few more arguments to make:
1. The brainstorm interface fails to bring about the opportunity to form cliques.
2. Good ideas aren't extraordinarily vulnerable to being oppressed out of existence.
For instance, my last posting: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8844/
First response, and from repeat offender glotz: "I disagree. And most mouses come with a wheel these days."
Disagreement by preference, and failure of acknowledgment of wheel-less touchpads and older hardware (i.e. lack of endearment as you said).
Last response: "-1 Because there's been no alternative proposed. Think of a better way to do it and come back with an _idea_."
This is a failure to fulfill the site's title. Comments shouldn't necessarily be simply for this kind of argument, but additional brainstorming.
My response:
"holizz, in non-GTK+ apps, the default behavior is to expand to another column. However, I don't believe it's THE best solution, and I'm not necessarily going to be able to suggest the best solution. I'm a creative person, but odds are that if we brainstorm, even if we're using comments in that sense, that a good creative solution will arise.
Another solution might be to limit the height, which would make scrolling easier.
Another idea may be to limit box height to a percentage of screen height and to toggle through columns with buttons on either side of the column."
However, although snobism exists and is certainly a dampening force, it didn't exactly destroy the idea that no, a combo-box/dropdown should not take up the entire height of the screen at all. Any one particular solution in this instance won't bring the underlying issue to the surface, and that's what ought to be in comments.
I will submit an alternative solution as a separate idea and see what support I can rile up.
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Omega wrote on the 24 May 08 at 00:24
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Again - I did make suggestions in here, people are failing to read and now brainstorm is suffering from the ignorance of a FEW participants where MANY may come and create a wellspring of great and very unique ideas.
Suddenly, these protocol enforcers are imposing their own agendas onto something as simple as a huge idea bin.
It can't get any more simple than that, there's no need to oppress here. But look at jhoger, he treats it like a career! I'm already about 40% turned off of brainstorm because of him.
I've been using and known of Linux for a long time and I'm not some overwhelmed amateur gushing uncontrollably. If I have an idea, while it may not be as original as one from a more amateur user with *real NEEDS*, my ideas are still valuable.
That doesn't put me above anyone or them above me, but it does mean people jhoger could afford people some respect and not go around trying to invent his own priority criteria.
...and maybe be a heck of a lot systematic about something as wholesome and simple-at-heart as brainstorm.
In that sense, he misses the Ubuntu train by a good amount.
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jhoger wrote on the 24 May 08 at 05:23
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I am free to invent my own priority criteria. So are you. So is everyone else. I can even use it in comments. The comments I think are for free discussion. I'll ask again, what do you think the comments are for?
It seems you have a vision for what Brainstorm should be and how it should work. That's fine. But why does it surprise you that there's some diversity of opinion on that topic (how Brainstorm should work)?
FWIW, as a card-carrying member of the "uber l33t/tastemaker/mind controlling jerks/superior/snob/..." clique with an agenda for total brainstorm domination that rubs Omega and somebody else the wrong way, I can only say, we come in peace, and all we really want to do is help Brainstorm to be more useful so that it can make Ubuntu better.
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glotz wrote on the 24 May 08 at 09:57
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deadowl, so you publicly label somebody that doesn't like your ideas a 'repeat offender' now?
I think that kind of thinking really helps brainstorm to became a success.
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LC всадник cbet wrote on the 25 May 08 at 07:58
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I agree that we should somehow prevent good ideas not being implemented because 'snobs' and trolls, so perhaps ideas could be suggested anonymously when the person feels like and only moderators could know who posted them; or if we get a bit extreme on this issue ideas should be submited anonymously and only revealed when implemented,ruled out or after a given period of time.
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/9068/ (related but specific)
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HDave wrote on the 29 May 08 at 19:18
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Snobs and trolls can say what they want, but they still only get 1 vote. I myself read the comments often, but typically vote based on the merit of the idea -- I suspect most people do that.
So while I agree that Brainstorm should have moderators that ban people who are rude, insulting, or offensive, I disagree that there is some kind of a severe problem here that needs fixing. So -1.
By the way, this IS an idea, regardless of what others say. And anonymous commentary would be a disaster for Brainstorm.
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jhoger wrote on the 30 May 08 at 01:25
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HDave... "this IS an idea, regardless of what others say"...
Argument by assertion?
It's not an idea. It's a statement of a perceived problem. The next part is the idea. For example, other people have actually proposed a comment moderation system. That is an idea.
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Auzy wrote on the 30 May 08 at 03:28
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I think you may both be right. HDave is correct in saying this is an idea, because it puts forth the notion of penalising snobs. However, Jhoger is also correct because whilst the idea says to get rid of snobs, it actually doesn't propose any ways to get rid of them.
But I still stick to my -1. The reality is, the idea posted still doesn't propose any ideas to fix the issue. So its actually a generic idea, which isn't specific enough to do any good. The idea itself wont accomplish anything and is more a discussion forum then anything else.
One could compare this idea to others such as "make gnome more usable" or "better hardware support". These examples acknowledge there is a problem (similar to this one), so people will vote on them because they acknowledge a problem exists. However, such ideas cannot possibly help developers, because they don't offer any means of rectifying the underlying issue.
People aren't voting because they think it will help, they are voting on the underlying issue. But despite whether the issue exists
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Auzy wrote on the 30 May 08 at 03:29
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or not, does not help programmers find solutions to them
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Omega wrote on the 20 Jun 08 at 17:00
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You guys are all idiots, I've already outlined in these comments the part of my idea that has suggestions.
If you're too dumb to read, that's not my problem. But you are proving exactly what I mean.
If someone has a problem or has a general idea of something they want improved, they shouldn't have to present the entire idea (nor should they be limited from!) including a solution.
It's so pissy and political and this politicizing of brainstorm is exactly what I'm talking about. All of you think so damn highly of yourselves but you don't know when to leave a good thing alone.
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Auzy wrote on the 21 Jun 08 at 01:18
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1) Omega, I'm a dumbass, please highlight your suggestion to me.. Because I have read through it, and the only thing I could find was reducing functionality, and that was posted I believe after you started insulting everyone
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Omega wrote on the 8 Aug 08 at 22:23
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I didn't insult everyone (nice attempt for sympathy there). Just the people who are too stupid to read what I'm saying.
I keep telling you what I say, and you keep asking me to say it again.
Go learn English.
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