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neobuntu
wrote on the 28 Nov 10 at 21:56
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Please do not miss the idea, that while this new type of installer would be called "released", much later; it would actually work, with more stability, simply by the nature of being a fresh install, in another place (partition). In other words, it would NOT have to mix with the previous install.
Note: In situations with not enough space, for another new partition, the current system could be backup, by the installer backup routines, to (for example) to an pluggable external drive. Help would include the size requirements, and it could be compresses, and uncompressed, upon a restore. this way, fail, new installs, give the user a good option to go back to there previous system, even if they didn't have room to keep it on the hard drive. Normally, with hard drive space so cheap, backup and restore would not be even necessary. This option could be added to the new installer later in development.
Please understand, this new technique allows much flexibility, in the "part 2" of the new "installer", after the new working system has been throughly tested a while. once a new release is working, the options are nearly limitless, for auto-downloading new components. For example, this would bring new routines (with pre-backup), to delete old and unused partitions (like the old, old release), AND reclaim that space, even if that includes copying new installs into old, now unused space(s). AKA, partition moving.
If someone buys a faster hard drive (for example), all they will need, is this new (managed, old-install saving, with backup and restore options) clean installer.
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neobuntu
wrote on the 28 Nov 10 at 22:25
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Also, one of the new "part 2", after, new install components, would be a glorious, team lead routine, that would Analise popular enhancements that had come to pass, on the last release, and guide you to the option(s) of quickly adding those desired enhancements to your new install, in record TIME! This would account for things now not necessary, new enhancements (that people have developed for the new popular, mainstream release), and of course OPTIONS, such as different programs, for the same task.
Observably, part of this could easily be separated as unofficial, component plug-ins. This, covering non-free stuff.
The end result, could be smoother than Linux Mint, enhancements. Because you pick what you want, and it happens fast; retaining high customization with little time (or geek knowledge) required, to do it. this would eliminate the problem with adding all your (built up) personal changes, to a clean install! Thus keeping (more) with mainstream happenings, AND stopping the time vampires, at the same time. The general amount of Windows converts should approve. Hardware support would improve, from now good, to the best. Because, newbies DO NOT, and will not understand why their odd device, is locked out. As we continue to gather much needed, non-technical parts of the computing population, this will get better(FASTER). Most of these people will never believe what Microsoft is trying to do, till it's to late. It's too technical. It's up to us, to simply be better.
Automating a new kind of non-destructive, clean installing will work wonders. This is the very heart, of where many regular people, set in their Windows ways, fall. This is the battle front of the whole deal. Innovation here, could foster a new age, FASTER. If we do not move faster, attacks will threaten the validity, and adoption, of open software. This can slow us down, if not stop us. More stupid laws will be in place, and we will have little (percentage) support to repeal them.
It's all about, a better mousetrap. I do not want to get way off on a tangent, but make no mistake, the battle is for the minds of the general and non-technical population. unfortunately, we need to be better, than just better. I am sorry. That's current reality. Ask around. being able to say "just try the new installer" could, actually make all the difference! After all, what good, are all these better works, if people never discover them!!!!
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neobuntu
wrote on the 28 Nov 10 at 23:12
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Ubuntu site, text "mock up":
What is the new "reinstaller"?
The new Ubuntu reinstaller, is not the old, in-place and managed dist-upgrade type installer(still available); Nor is it just a clean installer. Our new "reinstaller", manages your move to the newest, and exciting, Ubuntu release, in very easy steps. Saving your production environment, until AFTER, you have put the new release, through it paces. You may then keep your new dual (or more) booting system, or let the (part 2) installer reclaim your precious hard drive space, selectively. No technical abilities required. However, that's not all. The new installer (part 2) has a plug-in system, not the least of which, includes getting you back, and up to your desired "tweaks", post haste. Our reinstaller team specializes, in the task of making all the popular Ubuntu enhancements, available to you; with a simple click. This even includes, the ever popular non-free component, plug-in options. So now, your Ubuntu effectively comes more, ready to hit the ground running, than any other full-featured software system on the planet. (This, of course, takes no options away from the old way). It only maximizes the use of the new Ubuntu standard, for everyone!
Experience not required. This is a boon, for business use, by the way! here's to NO LONGER losing convert, when it comes time to hit the new release.
Note: I am one that understands, the reason Ubuntu tends to require a clean install, is the whole foundation can be different. That a positive betterment, that lets no grass grow. New (non-technical)users, WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THAT! Every Six months (new releases), is difficult, to say the least. Here, I have offered a solution, and one that keeps no grass growing, under our feet, even for non-technical users. If we do not solve this problem, non-technical users may use Ubuntu for a while, and then give up; when new releases are tried. If they are ever attempted. I do not think, telling non-technical users to stay with an old, LTS release forever, AFTER the fact (tried and failed), is any kind of good solution. That is a net loss of users, eventually. Mine, is a net gain.
Remember, all I'm asking it to take all the things an expert would do, to install the new release, along side an old one, and put it in, an automated program, for the non-technical. That is far less an obstacle, than current managed dist-upgrades, for unknown (exponentially changed) old systems, without recourse. Everyone tries this, it takes LONGER, and until much later, MOST people don't have good experience with it. If it "works", many find themselves in uncharted water, wishing they had better started with a fresh and clean install (like everyone else) anyway. We keep trying to perfect this broken(initially for most), dist-upgrader, every time; without realizing we will never know exactly what state people old systems were is, as they started. Clean installing, ALWAYS starts everyone, with the same exact set. That something we can better work with, FASTER. Long live the new managed, clean installer. The reinstaller, even if it's the first time.
Keep in mind; ALL the same options as now, can be just as available.
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Could you *please* shorten your descriptions as you have about 10 minutes worth of reading material here. I highly doubt anyone will bother reading it even if in the end they would agree with you.
Try using point-form lists and making sure you haven't repeated anything.
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edm1
wrote on the 30 Nov 10 at 13:25
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From what i gather from a quick skim is that you pretty much want to extend the testing period for 3 months but have everyone participate in it (requiring them to do a fresh install each time) with the option or rolling back to your old install if things dont work out? So you have 3 months of everyone on unstable and 3 months on stable cycle. Your rationale is that both new releases are unstable and dist-upgrade often fails. This seems like a lot of unnecessary complexity for both developers and users considering the rationales are not that strong
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pfff.. my 10 minutes are spend, but i still don't understand.
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neobuntu
wrote on the 16 Dec 10 at 17:23
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Summary:
1. The current manage dist-upgrade does not work, for enough people initially, until it is practically no longer needed (in time). AKA, it doesn't work for a high enough of a percentage, right after a new release is official. This (non-clean, managed, dist-upgrade) can not get better, because the new release, is ALWAYS a moving target.
2. Clean installing works much better, and is actually less time, and it starts everyone on the same, level playing field. This is a big deal, because new releases, are all about change; often foundation-ally. AKA, under the "hood".
3. The cons of any clean install, are required backup (smart to do anyway), and having to redo all your add-ons, tweaks and customizations. This still, being actually faster, and more stable, than the other way, and can be greatly automated, as well. We could include extensive back-up programs, in any installer. This could assist users in backing-up things, they can't live without. It could also note some customizations, and map them to the same or new, and known add-ons, for the newer releases. A team doing this, would be less work, than the unattainable task of smooth, in place, Ubuntu dist-upgrades. Ubuntu, by nature, can not do that (with true comprehensive success), during the first months, AFTER a new release. It is never better (or faster) than, a backup, and clean installing, DURING, the time it's needed most. It only works, for long overdue dist-upgrading. Still, it is NOT the same as clean installing, and leaves trails of differences; getting farther and farther away, from stability (and help from like kind users). In other words, a quandary about why things don't work, on your Frankenstein install. While every install can be different, a clean install keeps everyone much closer to th same playing field. Regular, in realease upgrade (which are great) can work even better!
4. Therefore, I'm talking about an assisted, clean installer. Thus, completely eliminating, one of Ubuntu's weak points. We think in terms, of initial Windows converts (which is good); however, once people install Ubuntu, we are losing them upon their try, of the new releases! Telling them, that they should stay with LTS releases, is not working. That does not address the issue, of any desired release upgrade, best needing a clean install, instead. Yes, I am suggesting that we move away, from promoting the current system (managed dist-upgrader), and make ALL dist-upgrades, a very managed, clean install+. The plus, being optional types of backup, partition management, optional, secondary test installs, and great assistance (time savings), with getting your new install, up to the users preferred customized state.
Why?
A. Much quicker.
B. It's "perfectible", at the time of a new, foundational different, and dynamic release!
C. Can (optionally) add assistance with backup. Image, and it's restore, and/or just your most important data.
D: Can add test install partitions (advanced), apart from your old one. Thus allowing a go-back(and try later), often needed on SOME hardware that is NOT compatible with a new and different release. Plus, this could be done with other drives, if there is not enough room. Sizes should be detected, and offer guidance, and automated solutions (suggestions), like using flash drives, for "go back".
Note: Ubuntu can not roll, like Debian, and still be Ubuntu. It would not have the advantages, of Ubuntu, as it is. I am offering a solution, to that perplexing con. AKA, this will still allow Ubuntu's faster (including it's core) progression, at it's fast 6 month pace. That, is a pretty big deal, if you think about it all, as a whole.
My whole premise, is quite sound, and it is; You can't change the foundation, as Ubuntu needs to do, and have a sufficiency working, managed, non-clean, dist-upgrade, until it's too late. It will work eventually, just not right after a release (for most; then). It can't. You can't fix, what you don't have, to work with yet. With a clean, install method (assisted), you can. I see this as a hugely over-looked reason, for most people leaving Ubuntu, for closed systems. Especially with the pervasive FUD, and non-standard lock-ins. AKA, if they need to call an expert, to dist-upgrade, were done for. It's not ready for prime time. I know, I have lost converts, to it.
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