Ubuntu QA:
BlogBrainstormPackage status
Log in
Ubuntu QA
The Ubuntu community has contributed 22700 ideas, 138270 comments, 2629576 votes
Idea sandbox Idea sandbox
Popular ideas Popular ideas
Ideas in development Ideas in development
Implemented ideas Implemented ideas
Idea #25387: Swap for non-root users

Written by johndoe32102002 the 16 Jul 10 at 15:44. Category: Usability. Related project: Nothing/Others. Status: New
Rationale
There should be a method to allow swap partitions or swap files to be mounted or utilized without invoking root access.

-23
votes
up equal down
Solution #1: Revamp swapon and swapoff
Written by johndoe32102002 the 16 Jul 10 at 15:44.
The programs swapon and swapoff should be revamped to allow non-root users to use swap partitions or files.

For example, if a user were to insert a USB flash/thumb drive with either a swap partition or file into a computer they did not have root access (e.g. corporate, educational computer), the user should be able to mount the swap partition/file.

This method should only allow the swap space to be used by the user that initialized the mounting of the swap partition(s), to maintain security.

Propose your solution

Attachments
No attachments.


Duplicates


Comments
Ssdg wrote on the 19 Jul 10 at 21:32
I don't like the idea, usb sticks are not made for frequent writes... (I don't get why M$ did it with windows, maybe they have an arrangement with USB sticks makers).


Darwin Survivor (Brainstorm moderator) wrote on the 20 Jul 10 at 00:50
Not only are they not designed for the abuse, but it's bloody SLOW as molasses (over USB 1.0/2.0 at least).

The only time it is at all usefull is with a built-in flash drive (NOT usb) and possibly with the new USB3.0 (not in retail yet).

Auzy wrote on the 20 Jul 10 at 06:16
@Ssdg, they were probably just adding extra possibilities.

I can't really think of a reason why end users would need to do this honestly. It wont add more security probably because users shouldn't be using systems they don't trust anyway

johndoe32102002 wrote on the 20 Jul 10 at 23:28
I know my USB flash drive is 3 times faster than my hard disk. If you don't have a SATA or have an older laptop hard-disk, those are very good reasons to use flash off a USB flash drive.

Eldmannen wrote on the 23 Jul 10 at 11:59
No idea why anyone would want this functionality.

mikaelstaldal wrote on the 26 Jul 10 at 09:16
Is your USB flash drive 3 times faster than your hard disk for writes?

johndoe32102002 wrote on the 28 Jul 10 at 00:01
Yes.

Auzy wrote on the 28 Jul 10 at 07:43
For swap flash disks can be faster actually.

However, it still makes little sense to move the swap to flash drive.

Instead, you would use something like readyboost which caches the swap, so that the drive can be removed safely, and you get the benefit of the faster speeds.

Writing wouldn't be as fast potentially, but read-speeds would be much better. One could always adjust the rate of swapping out, which means that you'll get an overall speed gain (and write speed becomes less relevant).


Or you could just buy more RAM...

mikaelstaldal wrote on the 28 Jul 10 at 09:22
Someone should manufacture an USB device with RAM on it, that would be good for swap for computers where you cannot expand regular RAM.

Auzy wrote on the 28 Jul 10 at 15:46
Wouldn't be marketable. Even (ancient) DDR2-400 transfers at 3200 MB/s, far beyond the speed of USB2's maximum of 60, and so, clearly, a system with swap would be far slower. People could justify buying an expensive USB memory stick because it has other uses, but a device which is only RAM, yet is much slower has limited uses..

Also, there are USB memory sticks out which can read at 40MB, so people would just use those (you could stripe them and get better performance too).

I couldn't imagine who would buy this, since ATA133, was 133MB/s. So maybe a hybrid IDE HDD would make sense, but even still, its a VERY limited audience. Sorry, but I don't think your idea would happen

mikaelstaldal wrote on the 29 Jul 10 at 08:27
An USB device with RAM will not be slower than a USB device with flash, and it ought to be cheaper than a *fast* USB device with flash.

The intended audience would be those with older computers where it is not possible to expand regular RAM and with a not-so-fast HDD.

Auzy wrote on the 29 Jul 10 at 17:50
Well actually, you'd have to develop drivers and a special controller for it which may cost money.

It wont be slower, but regardless, because it doesn't have any secondary uses, very few people will buy it, and that will further push the cost up. It also isn't nearly as fast as ram, so you are just speeding up swap slightly, but it still wont be anywhere near as fast as it would be with excess RAM.

There aren't too many computers out there where it is difficult to replace the ram either, mind naming a few?

Seriously, for old computers, it would be more effective to be able to utilise Graphics card memory as SWAP (64mb of graphics card memory will add significant speed increases to a machine with only 256MB RAM).

This just reduces some of the problem. The computer will still need more RAM anyway, so why not just do it?

johndoe32102002 wrote on the 19 Aug 10 at 03:06
@Auzy wrote on the 28 Jul 10 at 07:43

I use a flash USB disk permanently attached to an old laptop, because it is hard to find more RAM for it, and I might be max'ed out on the amount of RAM it can take. Since RAM has limitations such as these, I find USB flash disks are the only solution to make older computers go faster, especially at continuously cheaper and affordable prices.

Ubuntu should take advantage of allowing users to use USB flash drives as cheap swap addons by revamping Swapon/Swapoff features.

Auzy wrote on the 19 Aug 10 at 05:51
You wouldn't want to use it as Swap though, or the system will crash if it gets unplugged.. The better way is something like readyboost, which caches the swap file.

Have you tried finding ram for your laptop btw? On ebay, even specialist ram can be quite cheap

Darwin Survivor (Brainstorm moderator) wrote on the 19 Aug 10 at 13:33
Or a swap partition on the HD? Harddrive space is even cheaper than USB drives and you can easily find 100+GB ati drives for laptops online.

johndoe32102002 wrote on the 7 Sep 10 at 16:02
The old laptop is a Compaq e500, and I think the motherboard can take up to 512 MB of RAM. It uses proprietary IDE hard disks, so buying a new hard drive will be difficult (physically and in financially supporting proprietary hard drives). The hard disk is less than 10 GB and is slower than 4200 RPM. USB Swap is the only way to increase RAM above the motherboard limitations in this situation.

Darwin Survivor (Brainstorm moderator) wrote on the 7 Sep 10 at 16:32
Well, unless having a laptop with non-standard IDE connectors and limited RAM running software that can't possibly be moved to another machine is a common problem, I don't think it's worth implementing this kind of thing for 1 person.

You still haven't explained why you can't simply use a swap partition on a usb harddrive.

Auzy wrote on the 7 Sep 10 at 17:37
The big concern is that many things in the memory system are shared (such as libraries), so a lot of precautions and special treatment would be needed to keep it secure.

Also, the harddisk probably isn't proprietary. It probably has a harddisk caddy attached (try taking off the caddy).

Normally I'm a big fan of improving options available, but I think there are many additional considerations needed here. Too many, and it probably overly complicates the memory system with very little gain.

So +0. Not a step in the wrong direction (I do feel something like readyboost is a better choice though), but probably difficult to implement, since you'll be seriously messing with the paging/memory suubsystems of Linux


Post your comment