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Description
Many ideas posted here suggest that Ubuntu should look and|or feel like WindowsXP|Vista|OSX arguing that if so more Windows|OSX users would switch to Ubuntu. Often the suggested methods to achieve this are simplifying and|or even modifying Ubuntu in such a way that functionality, customization or adaptation get removed or limited. I don't think that this is the direction the Ubuntu development should follow. Because:
1. Creating a fool-proof system too often results in creating a systems for fools only. I personally think that Vista is the best example for this. By trying to make Vista more secure they made Vista more annoying. Starting to protect the system and the user's files from the user himself brought the system one step closer to foolproofness but also tends to be most irritating to the rest of us. Also by making everything as easy as possible alternatives, customization possibilities and adaptation are often eradicated.
2. By imitating Windows you most likely will attract Windows users. They will work with Ubuntu for a while then change back to Windows because you can't work on Ubuntu like on Windows and it also doesn't behave like Windows.
Windows and OSX might have some nice|useful features. And most of them are implemented into Gnome|KDE by now. So I think that we should stop with copying but start creating. Of course useful features should still be made available to Linux but the creation of new features should be more important. And by implementing new features, copied or created, functionality, customization and adaptation should never be limited. Also if it means that that particular feature might not be that "easy" to handle. e.g. providing a simpler GUI for apt is okay but replacing the package manager with a setup.exe like system would limit functionality.
Ubuntu should attract users with innovation, stability and possibility and not by providing "just an alternative". Constantly coping from Windows|OSX also demonstrates a certain inferiority. And Linux|Ubuntu are no more inferior. We slowly but surely caught up by now, so now we should start to overtake.
I don't want Ubuntu to be like Windows or OSX!
I want Windows and OSX to be like Ubuntu!
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Note: I completely rewrote this post because the first version was written in a too emotional state of mind and seemed to be partially just a rant against other brainstorm users, Windows and OSX. But the idea is still the same, although modified by adding information I thought was necessary due to comments from other users.
I'm adding the original post here as reference to certain comments and votes. So if you feel I left out an aspect from the old version please comment on it and I will try to add it.
Nearly every second to third idea here is "Ubuntu should be like Windows|OSX", "Ubuntu should look like Win|OSX" or "Ubuntu should copy this or that from Win|OSX".
Why? To trick people into using Ubuntu? Why the heck would this be good? I'm no Redmond fan but I have the feeling many people want to make Ubuntu popular to smash Windows|Microsoft. And I do not think that that should be the main goal.
I think the main goal should be to improve usability, stability, and everything else thats important for a OS to be good, and NOT to make it as fool proof as possible so that every idiot can just click around and do everything.
I mean look at Windows, thats exactly what they are trying to make it. As fool proof as possible and that ends by asking the user how many times if he is now really sure that he wants to delete this icon from the desktop or if he doesn't just want to think a bit about it again a little bit before doing so. And if Ubuntu starts to go that way then it will end up that way.
I want Linux to be user friendly for doing everyday stuff like browsing, checking mail, writing stuff, and so on.
And I want Linux to be feature rich and stable while setting up a ftp server, installing packages or just playing around a bit.
(Okay, a GUI like Synaptic for installing Software is nice for people that don't want to go bash hacking each time they want to install something. But getting rid of the package manager system?!? NO WAY!)
And Ubuntu should merge these two worlds! Like for example installing software:
Easy way = Synaptic,
but still also
Powerful feature rich but maybe bit complicated way by times = shell
Thats my point of view. I hope you think the same. I don't want Ubuntu to become like Windows or OSX!
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Comments
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probono wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 20:58
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It's called "competition", and you better stay ahead of it! ;-)
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blablum wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 21:09
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I think ubuntu should strive to be the most user friendly possible. What ever works better in another OS should be considered. That does not mean the system is getting dumbed down, power users that prefer manually configuring things can still do so. But I definatelly agree making things more like windows or OSX just to attract new users does not make sense, and please, do not copy their looks, we can be different and just as good, if not better.
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mcturra2000 wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 22:55
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If OS X/Windows has a better look or idea, then why not copy it?
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bgfeldm wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 23:00
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To stay competitive Ubuntu needs to implement good features (no matter where they come from.), and importantly! come up with plenty of original innovative features that are Ubuntu unique.
If all we do is spend all our time copying Windows and Apple, all ubuntu will become is a copy-cat which is always behind on features. But copying a few features here and there and making them even better is not such bad thing.
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infekt wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 23:53
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If Windows & OSX had features that we thought were unimportant then I would say 'stay away'. But many things that the other OSs do are good (even if not implemented efficiently).
Competition feeds progress. Windows copied Mac and slapped it on cheaper hardware and won over consumers. Now if Linux takes what OSX and Vista has and gives it to the users for free, on their desired hardware (expensive or not), I believe Linux wins out. Once you are the market leader, ppl are more receptive to your innovations.
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Greyor wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 00:34
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I'm extremely sick of hearing it as well. I'm fine with adding features here and there, but I don't think we should stoop to pandering to Win/Mac users if it is not in Ubuntu's best interest.
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ethana2 wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 09:22
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If it's a good idea, use it. If not, don't.
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k.y wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 09:28
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I'm not saying that Ubuntu should not copy any good ideas, what I'm saying is that Ubuntu shouldn't copy bad ideas just to attract Windows|OSX users (e.g. installation wizards for programs and no package manager anymore) and shouldn't waste too much time trying to copy all the cool features Windows but probably mostly OSX have but also invent own cool ideas. If something OSX makes is cool, userfriendly and so on, well don't just copy it, think about it:
-Can I optimize it?
-Is there a similar way of making it that might be even better?
-Is there a different way of making it that would totally rock? (There always is, btw, just go looking for it)
It would be nice to hear ideas that are not about copying stuff but ideas like:
"Always when I do this or that I run into the problem of not having|not being able to|having to do this and that . . .
My idea would be to make this, this and this so that Ubuntu would just have this new, nice, useful feature never seen before."
And we all will feel so darn superior when we see OSX and Windows copying this feature and calling it brand new innovation.
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theosib wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 15:59
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I'm all for merging duplicate ideas, but this other idea
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/2333/
was marked as a duplicate of this one and then hidden. It had some ideas and comments that might complement this one.
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k.y wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 17:27
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@theosib:
Strange, I think the merge is faulty because I am talking about innovation and you are generally talking about GUIs and design. In my opinion we are talking about two totally different things. Except I'm misunderstanding your point.
IMHO idea #2333 is not related to my idea and should be set free again.
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Estesark wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 18:17
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This isn't actually an idea, is it? It's just a rant at other people who submit ideas.
The only time you mention something you'd like to see is in this part:
"I want Linux to be userfriendly for doing everyday stuff like browsing, checking mail, writing stuff, and so on.
And I want Linux to be feature rich and stable while setting up a ftp server, installing packages or just playing around a bit."
As far as I am aware, it is already all of these things.
I'm not disagreeing with you - I feel that Linux should not imitate Windows just because it is successful - but the best place to express your opinion is in the comments of other ideas.
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k.y wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 19:23
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Yes I'm aware of the fact that this isn't an idea as such.
But I feel that this website is not just about new features anymore, many people also write about the way|direction they think Ubuntu should go.
And keeping that in mind I think that my post is not misplaced.
And after looking up "rant":
I want to say that my post wasn't meant to seem so aggressive. Of course it irritated me a bit that so many ideas seemed to want to transform Ubuntu into a Windows like system. Maybe thats why my post might seem to be just a rant at other users. (sorry for using seem* now three times in a row, but but it seemed to be the only fitting word ;) )
Reading my post now again I must admit it sounds a bit harsh sometimes. I truly apologize for this!
I didn't want to troll around.
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theosib wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 20:12
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Well, thank you for supporting the idea that my Idea should be separated from yours. I also agree that your Idea isn't merely a rant. But fat chance that Brainstorm will separate the ideas. I think Brainstorm exists as much for the purpose of pissing us off as anything else. :)
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k.y wrote on the 6 Mar 08 at 17:27
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Comments after this one refer to rewritten idea.
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gabtrat wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 05:06
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A good idea is a good idea. Companies like Microsoft and Apply pay a lot of money to make their OS good and the open source community has every right to steal the ideas that work.
The key is weeding out the crap.
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spyyder wrote on the 15 Mar 08 at 20:15
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Why, Apple and Microsoft spend billions of dollars researching what makes a good operating system. If the linux community did that then it would have more market share, but it doesn't. You say it should be nothing like windows yet, EVERYTHING from the gui, to icons, to interface, to graphics, the effects, menu items, the way we interact, ALL CAME FROM THESE COMPANIES!
You should re-label this to:
UBUNTU SHOUDN'T ACT LIKE SMUG LINUX USERS's.
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Ralf.Nieuwenhuijsen wrote on the 16 Mar 08 at 22:29
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What kind of brainstorm is this?
WTF?
If you want Windows and OS-X to be like Ubuntu go troll in their brainstorm website.
This is about what Ubuntu SHOULD be. Not vote on an opinion that has no concrete implementation.
If something is a good idea, who cares wether or not others do that too.
Its about usuability, not your existintial issues projected onto an open source project.
Voted down with a stick.
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k.y wrote on the 16 Mar 08 at 23:40
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The main reason why actually all big desktops look the same is that most humans that work these desktops have the same features:
two hands, two eyes, brain optimized to work in a 3d environment, lack of an USB Port in the head to clink directly into the system, . . .
Some things MUST just be so that humans can interact with a computer. And humans like to interact with an environment that is not too strange and has some kind of similarities with stuff they already know about in RL. Keeping this in mind, it seems just too probable that different interfaces have certain similarities and seem to be copying idea.
Different cultures developed writing without knowing about the other developments. Its because we are human, we all have the same hardware, our ideas, need and likes are the same (at least the basics).
Yes of course they spend billions on developing that stuff, but they also copied very much.
e.g. its been told that a certain person told his developers while coding the companies next product that was to be released in 95:
It must look like apple! It must look like apple!
And KDE and Gnome also spend quit a bit of money developing their systems. And if you had to pay all the developers a regular price per hour they spend contributing to KDE, Gnome, or any other desktop it also would be quite a bit of money. Not to mention all the other software, the Linux system itself and all the programs.
So the linux community too is spending a lot of time and money developing a good os. And look here: The market share is growing, so by the way.
And just because some stuff seems to be the same it doesn't mean that it is copied.
So they created some standards and had some good ideas. But NOT everything came from these companies.
And I think that the linux community has the power to create standards and ideas that are even better.
Because we are so many, because we learn from each other, because we don't have to reinvent the wheel, because we are free.
We copy some things, as well as they do. But not everything that looks the same is copied. A
nd not wanting to make the same mistakes and concentrating on creating more ideas for them to copy from us in order to keep up has NOTHING to do with being "smug".
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k.y wrote on the 16 Mar 08 at 23:57
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@Ralf.Nieuwenhuijsen:
. . .
okay, again just for you:
- It is not about "NOT copying windows and apple"
- It is about concentrating more on developing new and not only copying.
- It IS about usability but not about usability instead of functionality.
- It is about starting to take the lead.
- It IS about how Ubuntu should be
Please read posts before commenting on them.
especially if you have the urge do play "rude psychologist".
This was for sure one of the useless comments here to this idea.
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Auzy wrote on the 17 Mar 08 at 14:45
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Wow, another generic idea.
Lets not implement anything Microsoft or Apple does, because that would be silly..
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k.y wrote on the 17 Mar 08 at 17:22
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Wow, and another one who can't read. Am bit surprised though, didn't expect that from you Auzy. . .
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Cybercod wrote on the 20 Mar 08 at 03:12
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Whats really funny is that all the annoying questioning that goes on in Vista is Microsoft's flawed way of trying to immitate Linux!
If they had you enter in your password and if they asked for confirmation on less things and if they let you keep your admin privileges for 10 minutes, it would more or less be a direct copycat.
See, they can't even get it right when they have us showing them how!
I can't wait until we catch Microsoft stealing GPL code the way they caught Linksys. Then WE can play the lawsuit card ;)
Wouldn't it just be sweet if we could force something of theirs to become open? I think it would have to become an international holiday.
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JhansonJr wrote on the 2 Apr 08 at 05:31
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@Cybercod
GPL means "General Public License." Short for GNU General Public License. This is a free license, part of which means that ANYBODY can use things under this license, whether it's Bobby Joe, Steve Jobs, or yes, you guessed it, Microsoft.
The Lawsuit card wouldn't really work.
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k.y wrote on the 2 Apr 08 at 15:47
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Anybody can use the ideas, but I think what Cybercod meant is that if Microsoft would use GPLed Code we could use the lawsuit card. And that is possible. Linksys didn't use just the idea but the programcode itself without providing the sources. And thats NOT allowed by the Gnu GPL.
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wearzeep wrote on the 10 Apr 08 at 22:58
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I want Ubuntu to be like OSX :( At least a little :)
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neyuru wrote on the 5 May 08 at 17:03
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Hello k.y:
Great idea. How do you edit your comments/ideas?
thank you
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tbrminsanity wrote on the 5 May 08 at 19:21
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I'm not saying make Ubuntu exactly like Windows or Mac but we need to take ideas from them from time to time if they implement something that is logical, efficient, and in the best interests of Ubuntu. We have already taken ideas for both (example the start menu was started by Windows, and our search tool is very similar to Mac's finder). In return they are now starting to implement some of our ideas (example virtual desktops or "spaces" on the Mac). Learn to use the tools of the enemy so you can use it against them.
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harish_kd wrote on the 7 Jul 08 at 05:28
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we will think of it when ubuntu is the BEST desktop OS in the world.
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k.y wrote on the 25 Jul 08 at 09:34
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just saying that many ideas here what ubuntu to be like osx or vista (replace the package management with windows like installers and so on). all been said already. you can read it in the comments
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Auzy wrote on the 26 Jul 08 at 01:14
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I'd disagree k.y.
Whilst we are ahead of apple and Microsoft in the compiz department, most ideas pertaining to Apple/Microsoft daemons, we are seriously behind in. We may have them implemented (as in the comments), but they aren't offered for installation by default, or they have serious deficiencies that make them difficult to use.
I vote -1.
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sonicskywalker wrote on the 29 Jul 08 at 03:19
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I've said this before, and I will continue to say it. Windows (and Mac) is popular for a reason - its usable! Windows (XP and a few others) is compatible with just about every piece of hardware on the planet. The GUI is fairly user-friendly and it just makes sense. Similar commands are grouped together so that users can figure out where to find them. Honestly, since every linux user (except for a miniscule minority that jumped on the wagon at the beginning) is a convert from Windows or Mac. If Ubuntu is for human beings, then why must it be so difficult for your average computer geek to figure this stuff out without forums, readme files, and tutorials? I know I'm ranting, but it seems like we've got a lot of fanboys here that wouldn't know a good idea if it was written on a blinking neon sign the size of a bus outside their front door.
Lets face it, Ubuntu is not easy to use at first unless you're migrating from DOS. Lets stop pretending it needs to be different to be better and learn from the masters. You can't be the better OS if you're still can't do what the other systems can.
Right now, I dual-boot and get the best of both worlds (though I may switch over to Virtual Box when I upgrade my motherboard). Face it there are some things Ubuntu can't do yet (unless you can type about 300 terminal commands in order perfectly)
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notyetroot wrote on the 15 Aug 08 at 17:16
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Don't copy. Converge. To quote ESR "Linux emulates so it can absorb".
+0, no, -1, no, +1.
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