http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/item/13596/
The sad reality is that whilst Canonical has a wealth of development tools available, they are barely officially supported, out of date, or have no easy way of using them (like systemtap).

We need Canonical to step up and make the development environment for 9.04 a priority, so that first time linux developers, and long time developers have a powerful environment, that is officially supported by Canonical. By improving the development environment to be easy to setup, and more updated, developers are more likely to jump on board. In fact, whilst many developers consider coding on OSX to be a privilage, I have never heard the same said of Ubuntu.

Current areas we are severely lacking include:
- Eclipse is out of date in the repos and has been for ages.. Why?
- Sun and Apple have Dtrace officially supported, with a GUI frontend that really makes things easy. We don't have any support for systemtap nor have we got any comparable profiling gui.
- Windows and OSX has a fully supported out of the box development environment with the most popular languages in 2 clicks. With ubuntu, we have to manually work out which gui's we want, which tools, etc
- Debugging? Ha.. its actually quicker to port the code to OSX and use OSX's development tools in some cases then debug currently, because it supports step-backs and such.
- QT can compete against Cocoa. GTK even with Glade is a joke still. I'm not asking you to fix this, but if you want to encourage GTK development, at least have glade/eclipse integration in a developers metapackage
- Developers centre. Ubuntu has none, so developers aren't given a simple list of changes that might affect them next release, such as the change from Alsa as backend, to Pulse, so we can prepare in time. We don't even have a centralised way of really working together with other ubuntu developers.

Some may say developers can help themselves, but first impressions count. If it takes 3000 clicks to get your development environment to the standard provided by Apple in 5, whilst requiring you to also search for equivilent tools (such as dtrace which are considered standard for many OS's now) by yourself, you certainly wont prioritise the OS. By rewarding developers, with a better development environment, the end result will be a higher quality linux environment.

[535 votes] Solution #1: Auto-generated solution of idea #13596


]]> en-us Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:41:08 +0000 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 08:02:51 +0000 QAPoll module http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/13596/ Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:57:40 +0000
The thing that struck me about Ubuntu, is that it seems to be difficult to know where to go to get involved. For an open source platform, the source still seems a little guarded

I submitted an idea for Nautilus, which Id be more than happy to take on myself.

No source debs in the repository that I can see. Ok maybe thats not the best way to contribute, but for someone looking to browse the source and maybe see if they *can* contribute, it would have beena great start.

So after a lot of searching, I finally find launchpad, a site run by Canonical to share open source projects. Nautilus is listed, but the source isnt there either.

It just seems like too much hard work, so now Im just going to work on my own projects instead
]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:00:58 +0000
i found and downloaded nautilus code in 10 minutes or so. what is the problem?]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:31:36 +0000 developing for Linux is too hard there is no development environment that even come close to the windows one (vs)
and this blocks developers from contributing to the project

so ill give +100]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:51:14 +0000
Im not sure. Maybe Im stupid :)

Or maybe my point is, you already knew where to look? I would have expected Nautilus to be in launchpad, since Canonical provide it for everyone elses projects

A google search for "Nautilus source" doesnt seem to do the trick either]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:13:37 +0000
Developers, developers, developers, developers!]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:14:30 +0000 Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:31:09 +0000
Nautilus is part of GNOME. Type in "Nautilus" into Google and you will get the source code.

Type in "Nautilus" into Wikipedia and you will get the Nautilus website: http://www.gnome.org/projects/nautilus/

Or go on http://www.gnome.org , you will find it there too.

Or go on launchpad.net, type in "nautilus" in the search field and you will get it. ( https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/nautilus/1:2.24.0-0ubuntu1 )

Have fun. Nautilus needs developers! :D

btw: In the free software world a good way to get involved is to simply contact the developer of a software. They will be happy about every coder!]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:13:17 +0000
or uncomment the deb-src lines in your sources.list and do sudo apt-get update. Then you can just do apt-get source ]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:24:37 +0000
it should be apt-get source package-name]]> Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:25:48 +0000 Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:16:25 +0000
Its also simple stuff like even OSX has a dtrace GUI now, opengl profiling tools, etc. And we have almost nothing.


Whilst Apple, Microsoft and google are holding developer awards, Canonical, just sits there hoping...]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:14:48 +0000
Even more important than having a huge variety of development tools, is having a meta-package that contains all the *right* tools for hacking on the Ubuntu platform. Including some simple 'getting started' documentation.

apt-get install ubuntu-sdk perhaps?]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:58:19 +0000 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:17:01 +0000 I've been developing gloobus, a quicklook for linux (http://launchpad.net/gloobus) and at the begining it was very hard to know how and where to start, to know where to serach, etc... now I'm a little more adapted but I still code in gedit!!! So yes! a good developing envoirment and tools is needed!!! more coordination is needed and more collaboration is needed...]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:13:58 +0000
Setting up an deveopment envoronment for LAMP should be as easy as:
sudo apt-get install eclipse-pdt apache2 mysql-server php5

As for GTK++ development, we allready have the gnome-devel metapackage, but right now it also depends on Anjuta & Bluefish... The choice of IDE should be made seperately.

For example:
sudo apt-get install eclipse-cdt gnome-devel
...should just figure out that I want to develop GNOME apps using Eclipse CDT. No Anjuta or Bluefish needed.]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:05:53 +0000
However, we need 1 metapackage where one IDE is selected, with good plugins, is modular, powerful, and competitive against Xcode/Visual studio along with all the stuff we need (php, gcc, libraries, etc), as mentioned by liam. We need to standardise development a bit, and have a standard development environment recommended for Ubuntu. And it needs to remain up to date.

Otherwise newbie developers come to Linux, and they need to plow through half a dozen development environments before they find the one that may be the best choice for the future. And they may pick one wrongly that is on its way out. Ubuntu must standardise around eclipse. Developers don't need to use it, but Ubuntu has to make it easy for developers to pick up a copy of eclipse which is as powerful as Xcode, and have features like OSX instruments (Dtrace gui), in 1 click. ]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:40:27 +0000 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:54:35 +0000
I even discovered there is a plugin in development for systemtap today for eclipse. If that works properly, it really would improve linux development a lot. ]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:38:18 +0000
https://launchpad.net/bzr-eclipse

And another big hand to the entire Bzr-team that works towards streamlining the entire development process.

Give those guys more resources...and yes...update Eclipse in the repositories, package BzrEclipse, and build a nice Launchpad+Eclipse-integration :-) ( I heard that Mylyn-integration is in the works...very interesting)]]> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:42:57 +0000 I think it would probably be a good idea to not include an IDE in these seeds. There are enough IDE flamewars throughout the community [...]

No! This is for developers starting out on a platform, an IDE is *essential*.

Please, just pick the most popular IDE, according to development package (GNOME, Python, etc.) and include it. Let those who dislike the IDE use something else.

The advantages of ease-of-use outweigh the disadvantages of any flame wars. Bug reports can be closed, but a bad first impression remains forever.]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:09:18 +0000
I contest this for starters. Anyway, (lib)glade is on the way out.]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:10:30 +0000
Whichever admin said this is basically saying "everyone uses something different, so we wont support any". So now we have dozens of crappy IDE's that are hard to set up, because no linux developers want to stand up and take charge.

We aren't saying force people to use it. We are simply saying, don't make getting started on linux a pain.


And bruce89, contest it all you want. Out of all the people I know who have given GTK and QT a serious try, sorry to say, but I don't know anyone who has tried both, and stuck to GTK. Only reason people do is to avoid licensing fees.]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 05:33:39 +0000
I use Subclipse, manually installed as there is no version in the repos, but have Subversion installed via apt. The recent move to svn 1.5 broke the client, and in a most cryptic way. This is the sort of thing we can't have happening. Looking forward to converting to Bazaar RSN.

I think it is high time we "burn" one six-monthly release cycle just for developers. It would pay off for regular users many times over in the long run.

+1 (wishing I could vote lots more)]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 05:58:56 +0000
eclipse_java
eclipse_j2ee
eclipse_c++
eclipse_rpc
eclipse_modeling_tools

etc?

If this would be tedious - at least I think the current eclipse (3.2?) should be upgraded to the current 3.4.]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:27:24 +0000 http://howtoforge.com/installing-google-android-sdk1.0-on-ubuntu8.04-desktop


Note: You cant install the SDK without using a Tar.gz of eclipse because there isn't a version of eclipse new enough in the repos. So we don't even have an official way of getting the android SDK working in ubuntu. Thanks a lot..

All because you guys want to pretend like eclipse isn't the standard though (Sun, Trolltech & now google have started standardising themselves around it though). Instead we are playing the "well, some people use vim, some use anjuta, etc" card. As if any large corporation which use such tools for coding large projects.. They all demand extendability, which is what eclipse allows.


How do you guys honestly reckon you will take on any other OS, when you cant even decide something as basic as an IDE?]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:43:35 +0000
Excuse me for my ignorance, but is there not a way someone can make their own meta package and post it to a web site? Say right on Launchpad somewhere.

Then someone can offer their 'perfect' development environment for their product space (gnome, kde, web app, games, etc.) much the same as there are people offering instant LAMP Servers.

Sure... it's not the blessed Ubuntu solution - but I thought the whole reason for using this was to get away from the "Microsoft gives me everything (and then steals my product idea)" environment.

If anything, it would good that Canonical provides launchpad so you can support your solution. It would be nice if they could report back on the number of Ubuntu users with your meta package installed [so people could easily see the popular kits]]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:24:00 +0000 ]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:26:47 +0000
Just do it

Eclipse is the "Visual Studio" of open source today

do it]]> Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:21:54 +0000
1. In commodore 64 it took me an afternoon to write my first useful program. (From total newbe)

2. With Delphi 1 I was productive and wrote my first GUI in an afternoon.

3. In Linux I it took me an afternoon to figure out scripting and that works great.

4. I have still to figure out writing a GUI in linux. It sucks I've worked through several Gnome Tutorials and still I'm not comfortable writing GUI software in Linux. There is some serious love needed. I must be honest Web development, Backend software development cannot be beaten but GUI development suck and something seriuosly have to be done about it.

5. GLADE is a great GUI designer. Eclipse, Anjuta, Monodevelop are reasonable development environments but their integration suck. The basic knowledge to make these work is just to high and most of that is repetitive work hence the incentive to fix is not very high. Basically once you have done it you know how and just repeat doing it.

6. Make it simple is a big issue for development I'm hoping Canonical can do for Linux development what they have done for the Linux platform create something that just works and integrates well. The tools is there but nobody have packaged them in a way that is useful to newby developers.
]]> Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:10:19 +0000
Thanks for the tip, thats awesome :)
I had already added the source repo's but I didnt know about apt-get source rather than apt-get install]]> Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:34:07 +0000
Love it or hate it, Apple controls the developer platform. They make it free to all who want to download and use it.

Apple sets program and GUI standards for developers, and they've enforced them from the start. They DO make changes though. The laptops are the only remaining platform with a single-click mouse/trackpad button. However you can gain access to right click functions using the Ctrl-Click-and-hold function.

Ubuntu is successful for two reasons:
1. The user interface and list of apps comes ready-to-go
2. The environment is attractive (provided you like brown)

Create a well thought-out developer UI and a good set of rules, and developers will come.
]]> Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:27:47 +0000
"Including an IDE will make 30%
of users happy, but annoy the other 70%. (I can just see the bugs: "Please change default IDE to Geany, Please change default IDE to Eclipse etc."

Please change the default email client to Thunderbird.
Please change the default video player to VLC.

Is Totem used by default?
Is Evolution used by default?

By this logic, can't an IDE be used by default?

It's pretty damn clear that Eclipse is emerging as a comprehensive development environment and will eventually rival Visual Studio.

Still, at this point in time I'd use Geany, but that's because Eclipse constantly breaks on me when I try to use it on Ubuntu.

Honestly, I don't care what choice is made as to a default IDE, so long as there will be a default IDE.

You can support Geany, probably the best choice for lightweight IDEs. You can support Eclipse, the most comprehensive IDE. Or: you could possibly support both, as Geany wouldn't require nearly the amount of resources as Eclipse, being light-weight and all.]]> Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:07:27 +0000
Developers though wont touch an OS where they need to spend ages to get going with a half decent environment. And even when they do, with everything in the repos, because Canonical is sitting on the fence doing nothing, whilst Apple users are profiling their applications properly with Dtrace, and a nice gui, (that when announced every Apple coder I knew dug straight into it and played with it for ages), Canonical is still sitting on the fence, and still aren't supporting systemtap.

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but whilst Apple, Microsoft, Sun, and redhat are off helping to create killer IDE applications, Canonical is using the fence sitting as an excuse to not really help with any.

I've been questioning this for a while, but how much is Canonical really contributing to the open source world? Because they certainly aren't going out of their way to ensure that developers want to use linux. ]]> Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:01:32 +0000
They can either ignore this and be significantly unprepared for the market, or they can build the demand as well as a reputation, and be prepared for larger contracts when the opportunity comes. Starting work on it now would cost far less.

I also doubt they have done much research into the developer market or this issue would be resolved already.

You know, the big analogy here would be the U.S. automobile industry's situation.]]> Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:57:24 +0000
What does:
http://www.eclipse.org/org/
http://sourceware.org/systemtap/
http://sources.redhat.com/projects.html
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions

Its a list of a lot of stuff Redhat have seriously helped with. You'll notice lots of other distro names in those, except the exception is that Canonical is missing from pretty much everywhere (if not everywhere).

Redhat seems to have contributed alot to the linux community, yet, I am having serious trouble finding ANYWHERE that Canonical has helped.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if more of the code in Ubuntu was sadly enough more redhat's then Canonical's. ]]> Wed, 01 Oct 2008 05:26:28 +0000 Canonical to make a pledge towards helping Open Source projects. Part of the problem is that whilst redhat helped found technologies like Eclipse and Systemtap, Ubuntu is still sitting on the fence. This idea is for Canonical to help on major technologies to help shape linux.

Its no good for them to develop revision control technologies, which were designed for the express purpose of being "easier", when Canonical aren't also developing integration plugins for the most common development IDE's (because they don't support Gui development environments at all). By contributing to more projects, Canonical will have a more complete solution that will help developers. ]]> Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:43:27 +0000
Do not forget the size of these companies!
Canonical : 200 employees
Novel : 4000
Red Hat : 2200

]]> Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:58:48 +0000 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:35:33 +0000
There has been planty of excitement and news articles around the distribution so it's hard to say they are not contributing anything... and we are all well aware that Linux+FOSS, unlike MS or Apple, involves different contributions from different parties based on capacity and mission statements.

Perhaps you should put this passion to work and volunteer for the packaging team as part of the community to help build this development meta-package. It might not be perfect, but the package you create will help direct future development efforts.]]> Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:23:16 +0000 Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:35:06 +0000
The developer indicates that another developer already commented on something similar. The question is, "is that developer right?" The answer is "more often than not, no, they are not right". The reason behind brainstorm isn't to prop up the reputation of the developers but to get the ideas of the users and to implement them. That's what brainstorming is. It's an old technique.

In the days of statistical analysis software and the idea that continuous improvement technologies were being used in Japan to out produce the US with better more quality products, brainstorming was used by them, alot. It was also used a lot by the US when the US responded to them, as I'm sure it is still used here and in Japan.

What I mean by this is that when brainstorming came into being there were always the guys on top shutting down comments or suggestions, but a good company implementing these procedures would be telling them not to shut down anyone, to examine every suggestion.

What we have here, and I've seen it repeatedly in this brainstorming site, is that people, including the developers are shutting down legitimate suggestions and conversations.

Frankly, it is inappropriate and should NEVER happen. If you don't want to comment then don't, if the brainstorming site isn't used to brainstorm then it isn't working and should be closed down.]]> Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:14:41 +0000
We need to ask ourselves at what point Ubuntu is really at. Currently, our development base isn't as powerful as other OS's, and debugging/profiling requires more work, so less quality-testing can be done, so we risk bugs creeping in (its not Canonicals fault, we cant expect them to do everything after all). Its one of those areas where the sideeffects are real, but nobody realises that had things been done another way, things may have been better, kind of like DevFS which had numerous problems, but nobody thought anything of it. ]]> Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:30:33 +0000 But why cant more people be hired?
I forget where I saw it, but Mark Shuttleworth said recently that Canonical 'might' break-even next year.

I think it's expecting too much, too soon to demand them to allocate people to lots of FLOSS projects. When Canonical is rolling in profits and not giving anything back, then is the time to complain.

Back on-topic: I don't however believe it's too much to ask to have an up-to-date development environment meta-package, which *includes and IDE!*

If this gets implemented without, I'll be the first person to raise an: 'There should be a default IDE included in the developers meta-package' bug! :-)]]> Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:53:24 +0000
Where exactly are you clicking in Windows and what development environment is it that shows up for you when you do that?
]]> Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:33:37 +0000 Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:36:24 +0000 Sat, 06 Dec 2008 17:59:59 +0000
I don't think any other platform even comes close for experienced developers (I have used all the major ones). Features like backwards stepping and wiring up event handlers visually are useless gimmicks.

I do think that Ubuntu should do a better job communicating what's in upcoming releases.
]]> Fri, 06 Feb 2009 23:17:28 +0000