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drato
wrote on the 15 Aug 08 at 15:46
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I believe the issue is that Dell has to provide support for their line of Ubuntu Laptops. The issue here is that this means training and paying support staff to fill this role (which costs money). Given that Ubuntu laptops most likely do not have overwhelming sales, the cost of support has to be passed along to the consumer, and is greater than the per-consumer cost of the windows support staff (since Dell no doubt sells vastly more windows laptops).
Point being, the issue here is not exclusively with the cost of the software, but rather the support.
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A friend of mine asked some Dell employee about this fact, and the explanation he got is that actually the Dell PC's are provided with Windows preinstalled by the OEM ; so that installing Ubuntu needs more manpower.
I don't know if it's true (and if it justifies this gap), but anyways this definetly has to be solved.
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wleoncio
wrote on the 15 Aug 08 at 17:40
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Yeah, Linux-powered laptops that aren't cheaper than their MS counterparts really gives that "Linux is cheaper than Windows" argument a huge kick you-know-where...
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wkmincey
wrote on the 15 Aug 08 at 19:23
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From what I have read you should be able to purchase a M$ based computer and when you receive it request a refund of the M$ software before even booting it up. If asked for the reason why, just tell them you dont agree with the EULA. Then you could install the OS of your choice. I haven't tried this personally, but hear that it works. May be a bunch of crap though. Just thought I would pass it on anyway.
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Biornus
(Idea reviewer)
wrote on the 16 Aug 08 at 00:17
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Quit with your M$ already!
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Sounds like an antitrust violation to me
If it's support costs, which I doubt, then I suggest they just drop their own support and go with Canonical's. It's what, 20 USD for a year?
If Dell is buying HDDs with an OS pre-installed, then they need to work out a deal with the OEM they're buying them from. Simple as that.
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jvin248
wrote on the 17 Aug 08 at 22:39
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A little marketing on OS speed should be in order....
Dell basically gets Vista for free (or nearly free, yes a big debate here with no solution) and so they don't have an incentive to really put Linux on anything, other than there are people asking for it now and purchasing it. Dell is really building what customers are buying, sure they can avoid showcasing Ubuntu machines (hide them way down under layers of web pages). But like autos, not until recently did the car manufacturers really consider building anything other than SUVs... now all people want are small cars and no one has them.
Buying a Vista laptop means 4GB ram to realistically run, a high end cpu(s), and more storage.
Buying an Ubuntu laptop means 2GB ram, needs minimal processor, and much less HDD space.. to do "the same stuff".
The gap between them, at the end-user software level, is more like a $500 Ubuntu laptop can do what the $1500 Vista laptop can do. So the real gap is $1000. That means something. a $100 OS difference is nothing (when a consumer has to consider the risk "I might have to learn something new" or spend $100 , hehe, for Vista that they _will_ have to learn!).
I have not seen the price/performance angle played out on Linux vs Windows. It's always comparable hardware and only price difference between Ubuntu and the "M$ tax".
Go after performance bench tests. There are a few common programs, maybe something like Open Office, with a huge macro-crazy spreadsheet. How fast can it solve on Vista vs Ubuntu with the same hardware? How low of hardware spec (and resulting price) running Ubuntu could be used to mimic the high end Vista machine? I know some people have put compiz at full rates and tailored to match look of Vista.
Even the hardware manufacturers don't get this performance issue (!) .. look at the retail sales fliers in your Sunday paper. Every description has six different brand name components and nothing tells the buyer "if I pay $X I'm getting 3Ghz vs $X+Y I'm getting 5Ghz", rather it's "I get a Duron for $X and a Celeron for $X+Y". Mass confusion, so buyers use the one attribute they can depend on - the price - in choosing their next replacement.
Simplify and go after the OS performance. Something repeatable and easily used by many different people (they can download the spreadsheet and try it out on their machine... provided they install Open Office...For Free!).
Easy and clear performance differences will sell Ubuntu to new users.
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adrian2
wrote on the 18 Aug 08 at 11:09
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i'm sorry... i'm kinda stupid (feel free to agree with my self -irony)... so tell me again how you preinstall an os on a HDD without the computer... i don't get that. Also .. i understand that vista isn't ubuntu(a system that requires a little bit of compilation if not a lot)... but it still has to do a little configuring while installing it's self... and how the hell is it that installing windows onto a hdd or let's say they have a method for just copying it over and over based on hw patterns... how is it that a free operating system generates more cost than a non-free one?
I tried processing that in my brain but it's just another I/O error.
You have a system that is non-free... you install it with some method onto multiple hdd right.. cause sincerely ... i can't imagine a microsoft guy installing vista all day long. It's cost ineffective and stupid at best.
Why can't this be done with ubuntu?
The guy from dell said they don't have enough man - power?
Give me a big brake so i can go to hawaii for the weekend!
PLEASE
Ubuntu is hard to learn?
Yeah ... right...
for the average user it's almost identical to vista.. oh yeah ubuntu is "orange". They're just pissed off cuz they can't videochat yet. By the time they realize it's better(ubuntu) they put another 100$ in Bill's pocket.
They don't have the man power... give me a brake...
what do you think a bank manager tells ppl waiting in line because the computers don't work cuz he had to have his way with the secretary right on the server's keyboard?
-We're experiencing some techincal difficulties at the moment... the network is down but our engineers are working on the situation and we hope to have it resolved within the next 20 minutes. Thank you!
same with dell. and dell spells DEAL, deal with microsoft ppl!! what don't you understand? That's the deal. Just like microsoft is getting back that money(the $100 that they don't get from you) from somebody else who they made deals with(software co, hw co).
And so.. we have a large numeber of professional computer software that works just dandy with windows, excellent hw support with vista and so on and so forth.
sorry, i needed to get that out of my system :)
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@drato and @carickw:
That's right. But remember that change will be gradual as market shares go up. The prices will fall. If you want to lower the prices, you don't push dell, you campaign and tell people why they should buy DELL with Ubuntu preinstalled. But honestly, DELL seems to have maken a very weird decision here. Forwarding the support costs to the consumers just tells them: "Why buy a computer with an unfamiliar OS that is more expensive than a regular windows laptop?". It can be bad for the Ubuntu image.
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carickw
wrote on the 18 Aug 08 at 21:16
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@parry_mathur
Why would i tell someone to buy a more expensive computer with Ubuntu pre-installed when i can tell them to buy the windows version, format the hard drive, and install ubuntu for free?
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@adrian2:
What PC manufacturers like Dell can do is to set up Windows manually once, on the same hardware they are selling.
- Install all the right drivers
- Install the bundled software
- Then run a program called Sysprep (from MS, or another similar program) that makes the windows unique system id generic
- Then they image the hard-drive, which means they take an exact copy of it...
- They can then send this image to their hard-drive supplier, or write it to the disk when they receive it (depending on cost-effectiveness.)
While it's true they could do the same with Ubuntu, and perhaps they do, chances are they don't, because it's a special case, and they just charge a bit more, and have a guy sit there and install it by hand (with a quick install script perhaps, but still...)
Actually, they probably pre-install onto the harddrives, and have them sitting there in stock, with windows on them, and to install ubuntu, they have to re-format them first...
Microsoft gives them money to ensure they put Windows on their machines, so effectively you're paying the money MS would have been paying.
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mp3phish
wrote on the 23 Aug 08 at 16:25
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The problem is not that it costs dell more, or that vista is free, or any other BS answer I have read above here.
The problem is that the vista machines are regularly on a promotional discount, and dell marketing people sometimes "forget" to put the ubuntu laptops on the same promotion, thus, leaving us out in the cold.
If you raise this concern on dell's ideastorm, they always give you the same answer.. "this was a mistake made by the marketing website people and it is fixed now".
Its basically, dell being lame and making excuses and other crap like that. But really, do you guys actually believe that the ubuntu stuff requires more "man power?" Its nothing like that, it is about how dell likes to run promo after promo after promo, but the laptops are entered into their system as seperate products and thus the promos don't automatically propogate to eachother when they put them into their database. I don't know the answer, but really this is a dell customer service issue here, and dell has been "trying" to fix it each time the issue is brought up to dell.
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This statement is not true in all cases, sometimes is the other way round:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2469
The Dell Laptops with Ubuntu are cheaper than the ones with Vista, in the ZDNet blog (as of 30 August 2008) the Dell XPS M1330 with Ubuntu is about $400 cheaper than the one with Vista. (The Vista one is $1,599)
$400 Cheaper!! That's a good argument and reason to buy one with Ubuntu :).
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Don't forget that Dell gets you those restricted extras, but it still shouldn't cost that much.
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One problem is that many comparisons are against traditional retail versions of the OS and Office. However, the cost to dell and the consumer is much less because their OEM prices are substantially less.
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