Idea
#110: No Mono by default in Ubuntu
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75
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Written by Ubuwu the 28 Feb 08 at 17:50.
Category: System.
Related to:
Nothing/Others.
Status: New
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Description
Remove Mono and dependent applications from default Ubuntu Desktop CD. Mono occupies a significant amount of the valuable space on the live cd that could be used for translations and other things. Applications using mono use much more memory than their non-mono counterparts. Functionality can be provided by other applications that are just as good.
This will NOT remove Mono or any of the applications from the Ubuntu repositories, just the default Desktop CD. (Although removing them from the CD may mean they don't need to be in Main anymore)
This affects two applications included by default: tomboy and f-spot. Tomboy can be replaced by either sticky notes or zim and f-spot by gthumb.
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Comments
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exosyst wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 18:02
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OK, so it affects two apps at the moment but Mono isn't deprecated so what happens when it's three, four or more applications that need to be removed because of their Mono dependency? F-Spot does a lot more than gThumb btw
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Veejay wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 18:07
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Sticky Notes is old and almost deprecated and doesn't even come close to Tomboy in terms of features. As for comparing f-spot and gthumb, well, that's just ludicrous. That's basically like comparing Picasa and ACDSee to use a Windows metaphor.
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Ubuwu wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 18:18
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Tomboy is definitely a nice program, but I don't think it is needed in the default install. If other people do feel it is needed, zim provides pretty much the same functionality.
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exosyst wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 18:22
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Tomboy is part of the default Gnome setup though. I agree Zim does provide the functions of Tomboy and IMO looks better and is easy to use but that's something to propose to the Gnome team perhaps? It's also not really a case against Mono.
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Loffe wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 19:25
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There are some hatred against the Mono project because of its Microsoft roots. I've lately heard people complaining just because the relationship with "that big evil company".
I use Ubuntu based on that "it just works", even if I lose a little of my freedom (proprietary drivers). And there is a LARGE userbase out there that wants the best OS and don't need total freedom over all components.
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duncan.hawthorne wrote on the 28 Feb 08 at 19:36
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f-spot is so much better than gthumb. so what if it is mono, its a great, useful, fun app
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smartboyathome wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 00:31
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I use tomboy, and I find it easier than Zim. Zim just feels too much like coding to me, while tomboy doesn't.
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andrewfenn wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 04:51
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To summarise some different people's views gathered:
1) There is an ethical issue in that some people feel that Ubuntu should be promoting completely free and open source programming languages over closed source proprietary languages.
2) Some people feel that by including .NET and Mono by default encourages usage of that language rather then a free-er one in the Ubuntu default desktop which is more stable.
3) There are people who take the view that because Mono will always be a step behind Microsoft's implementation that it will always be not as good (like WINE) and so by including "not as good" in the default desktop cheapens Ubuntu and will ruin its reputation.
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Lars Noodén wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 09:43
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Obviously, there is concern about promoting non-free technologies and programming languages, in addition to promoting unresolved licensing problems.
However, there is also concern about creating the best system possible with the best technology available and that means NO MONO. Get over it. Even it's components won't ever catch up to Java and C++.
I'm not saying that it and programs that depend on Mono should not be available in multiverse. They just need to be far out of the way of the default install and out of comfortable reach from novice users.
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filipf wrote on the 29 Feb 08 at 21:35
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I must say I disagree. C# is an open language and Mono is open source. The .NET platform is great for quickly developing applications, and supports many languages (c#, vb.net, python, rubby, java, etc.)
I would argue that Ubuntu should strengthen its relationship with Mono rather than removing it.
P.S. Wait till Silverlight 2 come out. You'll see how cool technology .NET is. I can already see all the desktop widgets being made with Moonlight.
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hackel wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 05:15
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Let's all look again at the original idea. The biggest problems with mono are not philosophical, they are practical: First, the mono runtime takes up a huge amount of space on the live/install CD and is only used to run two applications! Second, the mono runtime takes up a large amount of memory--too much, for someone trying to run a Live CD off a ramdisk with limited free RAM. And finally, simply, neither of these applications make sense running off a Live CD. F-Spot creates a photo library--where are you going to store it, on your ramdisk? USB key? Unlikely. Tomboy is for taking notes that you want to remember later. This has no use on a LiveCD which doesn't store anything to a physical disk and so is erased each time you boot. You would want to use Online tools for this purpose so that you can easily access them again.
I don't believe the original poster was trying to disparage Mono, F-Spot, or Tomboy. I use both of these applications regularly and like them very much. However, I agree that at this time it does not make sense to include Mono on the CD. We are ONLY talking about the CD here, not Ubuntu itself! I would never want these applications removed from Ubuntu because I rely on them. Let's just take them off the live CD.
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rawsausage wrote on the 1 Mar 08 at 13:19
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It's seriously silly to have Perl, Python, Mono and whatnot ALL installed and used on desktops. Just focus on one, you save more space and it is better manageable.
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oz123 wrote on the 2 Mar 08 at 17:30
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I really tend to agree with the argument aginst mono. I probably have nothing to add, but here are the main argument untill now:
1. Mono occupies alot of free space.
2. Mono consumes a lot of memory.
3. Mono is suspected to be a 'trojan horse' to linux in the sense that its usage is free but C# is coming from Microsoft.
4. Why Mono when we have python pearl and Java RTE's, which are all 100% FREE ?
I also think that mono on ubuntu by default is redundant, regardles to what the GNOME developers think.
(P.S We already agreed to bite our tounges for propriety drivers, because they really make life A LOT MORE EASIER. That not the case with mono, no matter how 'cool' f-spot and tomboy are.
Plus, I must tell that I install Ubuntu for a lot of my friends, and I never install MONO apps for them on old PC's because they slow things down.)
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vexorian wrote on the 3 Mar 08 at 17:27
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Make it optional like WINE.
You don't see distros including winapi apps to be executed by WINE for default.
It doesn't make sense to see that happening with MONO...
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sedra wrote on the 6 Mar 08 at 11:33
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Mono use patented M$ technologies while it's ok for Novell it could be a trojan horse for other distributors who dont pay the tax for Microsoft please remove all mono based applications
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cikic wrote on the 7 Mar 08 at 22:50
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I do not like languages they need a VM. Yes is nice to be platform independent but you have always an overhead and it is hard to access your system features.
But I can see 2 main problems:
1) c/c++ is too difficult to learn an make quick apps (especially beside java/.net)
2) M$ has presented its singularity OS based on C# ( http://www.codeplex.com/singularity ) so the whole OS is going to "simpler" languages (and I think the VM overhead is not existing anymore since its in the kernel).
So in my eye its not the qestion removing mono or not. The Question is, is there one fast and easy language with all the power of gcc/++. You should be able to write kernel modules with this language, so yes maybe the kernel should be ported (to D, is D easy like .net?) some day.
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quantux wrote on the 13 Mar 08 at 20:20
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Personally, I don't see the performance problem with f-spot and tomboy. I use both extensively and haven't seen any slowness. I also haven't checked on mem usage for each while running. I have checked overall mem usage and find that Ubuntu uses around half the memory that vista does. As for Mono, I'm not interested in using proprietary technologies for my own projects, but I'm not against running apps that do. Just like I'm not against using flash, nvidia and atheros drivers. Open solutions would be best, and are on their way (gnash, nv, and ath5k).
I know that when the MS hammer falls and mono is killed, any apps using it will be ported right away, or other apps will take their place. Thats how free software works, kind of like evolution, the best apps continue to survive, not just whatever the big companies choose to release.
As for the live CD, running it without mono or other dodgy software would result in a poor oobe and would discourage new users from installing. Linux is about being the best OS it can be, and right now, that includes mono (at least until the java mess gets straightened out) and proprietary drivers.
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vexorian wrote on the 16 Mar 08 at 02:19
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"and right now, that includes mono (at least until the java mess gets straightened out) and proprietary drivers. "
No, it doesn't.
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HDave wrote on the 21 Mar 08 at 16:21
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The legal arguments are the only valid arguments for eliminating mono. Otherwise it is a valid and good development platform and should be included by default.
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filipf wrote on the 2 Apr 08 at 12:55
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Copied from my comment to idea 6088:
Since Ubuntu strives to become a user-friendly desktop Linux, I don't see the point why we should deprive our users of excellent software such as Beagle, F-Spot, Gnome DO, Banshee, Tomboy or Giver (just to name a few).
Apps written in mono are easier to maintain, quicker to develop, and offer much better long-term perspectives. In short - Mono is here to stay.
As far as performance and memory consumption are concerned, the Mono version that ships with Ubuntu is very very old. New versions do way better on speed and memory.
Java? Well, the JVM is okay and offers many benefits of the CLR. But with Mono one can program in any language (be it C#/Java/Python/VB.NET/C++/Ruby/Nemerle/Boo etc) which is more programmer friendly. The native bindings are also much easier to achieve than in Java, so Mono-based apps integrate with Linux desktop much better.
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Cypher wrote on the 15 Apr 08 at 09:54
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You really don't get the legal threat here, do you ?
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mmcmonster wrote on the 16 Apr 08 at 13:08
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This idea is about the LiveCD *and* default installation. While it doesn't make sense to have a photo manager or note application on a live CD, they need to be installed by default.
Also, Mono likely isn't going away anytime soon. Chances are more applications will be built on it in the future and removing it now (and using the space for other applications) may bite us in the end.
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Veichtlbauer wrote on the 21 Apr 08 at 20:44
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Just what legal threat are you guys talking about? The NET CLI is a ECMA standard, and Mono is a free implementation. They did not steal code from MS, they just wrote an implementation of a *standard*.
Sure, being paranoid about MS might not always be wrong, but this is really going the wrong direction. NET is a nice platform, and therefore should be included.
The "legal threat" of Java is just about equally nil.
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filipf wrote on the 23 Apr 08 at 04:26
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I'm personally sick of all this *bs* legal threats. What's next? Remove Linux kernel because Microsoft says it infringes patents?
Mono in an independent implementation of an ECMA standard. Get over it, ppl.
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filipf wrote on the 14 May 08 at 05:45
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Well, M$ is saying that the Linux kernel is violating its patents. Should we remove it too?
Cases like these must first be proven. And Mono is merely implementing a public standard.
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steve196 wrote on the 14 May 08 at 09:36
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+1, not for silly ideological arguments or tinfoil-hatting paranoia, but for removing unnecessary bloat from the live cd (which is very bloat-sensitive, because it doesn't use swapspace) and the almost mandatory ubuntu-desktop package.
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yesudeep wrote on the 4 Jun 08 at 10:23
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filipf wrote:
"Well, M$ is saying that the Linux kernel is violating its patents. Should we remove it too?
Cases like these must first be proven. And Mono is merely implementing a public standard. "
Oh-ho. Do you know what a standard is or why one is created?
When multiple vendors of the same technology create chaos by implementing it differently so the consumers or developers face problems using it, a standard comes into existence to give them some strong foundation so they can work together in harmony. You need to stop throwing about the weight of the word "standard" without understanding its meaning. Where did .NET come from? By your definition of a standard all of the FOSS community should start accepting OOXML because it is now an ISO "standard" when it clearly is the creation of a single company for its own growth. The more MS garbage you use the greater the MS developer platform becomes and hence the MS user base. You're just feeding the giant with your own flesh.
.NET came from MS and it is known to have MS-owned patents. Novell entered into a deal with MS to be on the "safe" side (whatever that is). You are basically using patented "standards-compliant" software and hoping Microsoft does not break its "promise" because the day it does, you'll be the one in trouble because you'll then have to pay Microsoft tax to use any of the Nomo applications you've been using all this while.
Stop being an MS Puppet. A "promise" is not a legal statement. It's just being taken in good faith (which offers you no legal protection). Would you like to pay Microsoft tax because Microsoft patented the mouse click? Think again. Microsoft is only trying to acquire higher market share by using the patent bait. You're helping it.
If you like Tomboy and F-Spot so much, barrage the developers with questions and suggestions to move to Vala which shares a lot of its syntax with C# and compiles to native code, which I'm sure will appeal to a lot of you developers and users.
Nomo is a bloated curse, and before you ask me why I call it "Nomo" read up. I vote for "No Nomo by default in Ubuntu".
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yesudeep wrote on the 4 Jun 08 at 10:43
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And for all you folks getting confused between patents and standards, standardized software is not necessarily free of patents. .NET is an ECMA "standard" but has a lot of patents owned by Microsoft. All of the .NET implementers then have to enter into an agreement with Microsoft to license the use of those patents (so that they don't infringe upon them).
MS is only "promising" that it won't sue. What stops it from breaking that promise? Nothing. Beware.
Novell is just one such puppet, and ECMA is known to have been a good friend of MS (as can be seen from the OOXML fast-forwarding fiasco elsenet).
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yesudeep wrote on the 4 Jun 08 at 15:48
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mmcmonster wrote:
"This idea is about the LiveCD *and* default installation. While it doesn't make sense to have a photo manager or note application on a live CD, they need to be installed by default.
Also, Mono likely isn't going away anytime soon. Chances are more applications will be built on it in the future and removing it now (and using the space for other applications) may bite us in the end. "
Removing it *now* will *not* bite us in the end. A problem detected early is a boon. Later on there may be thousands of applications using Mono and any patent infringement problems *will* really bite us bad because we'll be left nowhere and we'll have to reimplement *all* of that software or live with proprietary terms and conditions. You people should search for the "Halloween documents" on Google and read about Microsoft's policy with respect to free and open source software. Microsoft views open source as a threat (rightly so) and is trying to spread FUD against it about various issues including patent infringements and performance/value benchmark comparisons.
WTFU. ;-)
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Auzy wrote on the 5 Jun 08 at 01:21
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By the way, before you go off your nuts about Microsoft being evil and us needing to make agreements with them. Remember, we also need to make agreements with Linus to use the linux trademark too in our products.
I don't see how it is bad for customers to speak to microsoft at least, its no worse then having to get authorisation to use the linux trademark really.
I agree that we should try to include non-mono applications by default, but your reasoning yesudeep about puppets and all that seems a bit silly to me (and yes, we all may have a different opinion), like I said when you also consider that the OS we are supporting is trademarked too.
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yesudeep wrote on the 12 Jun 08 at 03:11
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@Auzy.
I'd agree that to use the LINUX trademark you need authorization. However, what I disagree about is the openness of technologies propagated by Microsoft. If you haven't been living under a rock for the past half-decade or so, you might have already come across the halloween documents and read the recent appeals sent to ISO by Denmark, India, South Africa, and Brazil. Threats, bribes, stuffing, spreading FUD, etc. are common practices employed by MS where I live.
Additionally, nowhere have I said that Microsoft is evil, so I'd appreciate if words weren't put into my mouth. While you may find my Mono argument silly, the reasons I've stated are sufficient for me to stay away from Mono. And I'm not touching it until Microsoft has given patent license grants to the free and open source community. A "promise" is insufficient for me as a developer.
Also spreading FUD about distributions other than those that have entered into an agreement with Microsoft is annoying in the least.
Cheers.
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eropple wrote on the 14 Jun 08 at 17:12
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>> A "promise" is insufficient for me as a developer.
You seem to be ignorant as to how the legal system works. That "promise" is what amounts to a solid defense against any lawsuits, patent threats, etc. from Microsoft. The legal term is "estoppel"; I suggest you look it up. Specifically, in the American law system, it's considered "equitable estoppel." Once Microsoft says "we won't sue," they are estopped from suing (if they do, they'd be tossed out on their ear so fast as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel
As much as certain members of the open-source community would like to demonize Microsoft, on this one at least they are genuine--by all apparent intent so far, and forced to remain so legally if they had a change of heart.
(Disclosure: I'm a GSoC developer for Mono. The above pointer to the practice of estoppel, however, was pointed to me by a lawyer friend of mine whose judgement I trust unblinkingly.)
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kiryl wrote on the 10 Aug 08 at 12:31
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Please, remove MONO from default distribution!
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notyetroot wrote on the 10 Aug 08 at 18:52
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I'm not sure about this. Personally I wouldn't remove Mono, but it takes up space which could be used for better things... +0
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ketilwaa wrote on the 12 Aug 08 at 19:36
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Thumbs down, all the *#%&(* typing "M$" put me over the edge. Just how old are you?
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Blueprint no-mono-by-default:
