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Idea #10224: Idea Improvements or Changes - Make Brainstorm more like a Brainstorm
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This idea was marked as implemented the 31 January 09.
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Written by drian42 the 24 Jun 08 at 05:35.
Related project:
brainstorm.ubuntu.com.
Status: Implemented
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Rationale
I often stumble across ideas which I like, but could be improved. Sometimes I might have suggestions as to how these ideas could be improved.
My idea is that, above the description, each idea should be shown as the centre of a true brainstorm. When someone views the idea, they would have the option to create a 'sub idea' or 'idea tweak' which would appear as clouds attached to the original idea. Users could promote or demote these 'tweaks' although the ‘tweaks’ would not appear along with regular ideas.
For example, if you thought that this idea was good but thought that it could be improved by perhaps adding the ability to give 'sub ideas' 'sub sub ideas', you would attach that to the centre of the brainstorm that would be shown above this description. Others could promote or demote this 'sub idea' and read more about it if they clicked on it.
An idea isn't 'tweaked' as such, merely the tweak is suggested. It would be ultimately up to the developer whether the tweaks would be included. The developer would of course be able to see which tweaks are more popular, just like they can see which ideas are more popular.
Tweaks (or 'sub ideas') don't at all change the idea; they are just possible ways in which the idea could be improved. So they should not affect a voter’s decision for voting for the main idea, as the tweaks may not affect the final result. They can always demote tweaks if they don't like them.
So, if you like an idea, you vote for the idea. If you don't like the suggested tweaks, you demote them. Or promote the ones you do like. The idea would not get split, as there could be several different tweaks. There could be two different tweaks which are both very popular, although I think that it would be very unlikely for these to be conflicting, so both could be included.
The aim of this is to improve the usefulness of the already very useful Ubuntu Brainstorm by turning it from just a list of ideas to a site where ideas are thought up, improved and tweaked before they go on to be properly developed.
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140
votes
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148
0
8
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Attachments
No attachments.
Duplicates
Comments
nand
(Brainstorm admin)
wrote on the 24 Jun 08 at 08:22
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Why, each time I think we are getting close to something good, does someone gives me another must-have feature? :)
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flammon
wrote on the 24 Jun 08 at 10:31
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Idea scoping and tweaking is great and I was going to submit it but I hadn't figured out how the voting would work.
Should the people who voted be notified that an idea was tweaked in case they want to vote on the new idea?
Should the vote me moved from one tweak to another or should we be allowed to change our vote? Because if you vote for competing ideas, your vote becomes useless.
This is definitely the right direction but other things need to change to have this idea work like changing votes or have a limited number of votes or something else that would let you show which idea you think, at that moment, is the best.
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I would propose a more simple change:
Just make the idea text itself like a wiki, so anyone can edit it, and revert if something bad happens.
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Good idea. This may alleviate the issues we have with dupliate ideas.
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This seems like it would have the potential to be a little dangerous. I like the concept of a "wiki idea", but what if the original idea poster doesn't like the new direction his idea is being taken? Does he have the ultimate control over his idea, or is it out of his hands?
What if people voted for an idea as it was first presented, but after several modifications, they no longer like the idea - can they change their vote?
What if there is a dissenting opinion on the direction of an idea, can it be "split" into two competing ideas? What happens to all of the votes in this case?
Should people be notified of changes to ideas they have voted on? It would seem fair, but that stands the potential to introduce a lot of overhead for the brainstorm servers...
It's an interesting idea, but it raises a lot of questions.
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Craig73
wrote on the 24 Jun 08 at 18:31
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I don't think I like the idea of a brainstorm item being able to split [unless there are distinctly different root issues being solved].
Brainstorming should be about identifying an issue. The tool should support people either
a) identifying different angles to the issue (to later help define the problem to be solved clearly)
b) identifying different approaches to solving it (to help identify tactical and strategic solutions based on benefits, cost and risk)
I'm not necessarily sure that coming to a conclusion is necessary in the first stage. Once all 'brainstorming' has been done then it goes onto the spec stage. The question is (my lack of ignorance here) is how the spec process occurs - how the spec is written and voted on.
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jcarroll
wrote on the 25 Jun 08 at 00:15
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Great idea!
Consider the following: a live brainstorming session, like an IRC chat room, but with a mind-mapping software like freemind (http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). They already have a version that works in flash. I think that would be a great way to really brainstorm with other people.
Cheers,
James
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drian42
wrote on the 25 Jun 08 at 05:55
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I understand how the idea could be dangerous. Perhaps idea tweaks would first have to be agreed on by the original submitter of the idea?
An idea isn't 'tweaked' as such, merely the tweak is suggested. It would be ultimately up to the developer, or perhaps be decided during the spec stage Craig73 mentioned, whether the tweaks would be included. The developer would of course be able to see which tweaks are more popular, because they can be premoted or demoted like I said.
Tweaks (or 'sub ideas') don't at all change the idea, they are just possible ways inwhich the idea could be improved. So they should not affect a voters desision for voting for the main idea, as the tweaks may not affect the final result. They can always demote tweaks if they don't like them.
So, if u like an idea idea, you vote for the idea. If you don't like the suggested tweaks, you demote them. Or premote the ones you like. The idea would not get split. There could be two different tweaks which are both very popular, although I think that it would be very unlikely for these to be conflicting, so both could be included.
I hope that has helped to clarify my description, and that it has answered all of your questions.
Flammon: I do not think voting for two conflicting 'sub ideas' would take away the significance of your vote, for without it perhaps neither would be included? or a third could instead? If u promoted one, you must have liked it, so why would you want to take away that vote?
Remember, more than one 'sub idea' could be included.
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flammon
wrote on the 25 Jun 08 at 12:10
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drian42 said:
Tweaks (or 'sub ideas') don't at all change the idea, they are just possible ways inwhich the idea could be improved. So they should not affect a voters desision for voting for the main idea...
I disagree. A tweak however minor that it may seem could influence me to change my vote. There have been a few ideas that I voted down that I would have voted up if a few words could have been changed. The tweaks can definitely change ideas from bad to great, great to bad and I want my vote to reflect the idea that I read.
I think that it is silly to vote for mutually exclusive ideas, but like you said, not all tweaks would be mutually exclusive. Perhaps when a tweak is introduced, we could show the relationship between the ideas and show that they are mutually exclusive but then the site is getting a little more complex which is not really a bad thing. Raising the bar a little is a good way to slow down the deluge.
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Craig73
wrote on the 25 Jun 08 at 21:36
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Hmmm .... thinking about another angle (dealing with duplicates) I managed to log a duplicate http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/10301/ ... [I'll report it]
I think this is an excellent idea - and when duplicates are linked - the unique ideas (and their votes) can be copied in as sub-ideas.
I was thinking if this could be implemented as voting on comments (rather than separate functionality) but I think it is good to be able to vote against useful commentary (come comments like 'dupe' don't enhance the conversation) versus good ideas.
I'm not sure why you would limit votes. If an idea had sub ideas that were all refinements - you might agree with all refinements. It would be a shame to only be able to vote on 4-5 good sub-ideas
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drian42
wrote on the 26 Jun 08 at 04:54
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Did i say you should limit votes? I don't think I did.
I sort of agree with you Flammon, and that is a problem. I can't think of any decent solutions though... without making the system overly complicated.
But then, the submitter of an idea can change that idea once it has been submitted (like I did :S), which has the same (in my eye worse) effect, as it could completely change the idea. So it is a problem which already exists.
Flammon said: I think that it is silly to vote for mutually exclusive ideas
Well, thats up to the voter. Most people would have the intelligence not to, and it doesn't effect to much. However, I do think that showing the relationship between idea tweaks is a good idea. (ie, by different coloured or labeled lines joining the tweaks on the visual brainstorm).
I guess that this would also help people to think more about their ideas before they post them, and think more about ideas before they promote them.
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Craig73
wrote on the 26 Jun 08 at 06:48
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[@drian42 ...the limit vote idea came from Flammon]
I would be inclined to think that the high level idea of what needs to be addressed wouldn't change - but I can see where the concern over the approach might become an issue.
That is why I suggested voting on the subitems (and having the initial submitter put a few of their points in the subitems as well)
Someone can vote on the main item to say - is principle, this is a great idea. Then the sub-items allow voting on how it should be addressed.
If something is a borderline case that you find interesting - click the star and track it for a bit rather than voting.
The subideas is an improvement because you can suggest your wording change rather than buring a potentially good idea.
I agree that changing votes would be good and likely will happen... but it shouldn't kill this proposal.
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nand
(Brainstorm admin)
wrote on the 26 Jun 08 at 09:16
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Very interesting discussion...
The collaborative mindmap suggested by jcarroll looks nice at first sight. Let's refine this idea and try to see how it would work and look *concretely*!
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drian42
wrote on the 27 Jun 08 at 05:04
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Right :) sorry. I read up but obviously missed that.
A collaborative mindmap would be a great idea, but it would be very hard to get people to agree. The whole voting system wouldn't really work. Possibly you could add another 'stage' to ubuntu brainstorm, where after an idea has been decided to be included or reaches a certain number of promotions it goes into the mindmap stage. Here everyone could add on bits or change bits of the idea. This however is a completely different idea from mine.
When you add an 'idea tweak' you should be able to decide where to put it in relation to other 'idea tweaks' and have the option to join it with other related 'idea tweaks' or parent 'idea tweaks'. The current brainstorm would be otherwise uneditable.
The original submitter of the idea should have a large but not to large influence over the idea tweaks. Say... his/her promotions could be worth 10 other promotions, or a larger green or red arrow would be used signifying his/her consent
I would like the idea 'brainstorm' to look like Cmaps in Cmap Tools (http://cmap.ihmc.us/), which in my oppinion is both simpler and more attractive than freemind. Of course, it would need a more ubuntu look, and would be simplified further.
This is a model of how i would like this idea to function:
The brainstorm would appear above the idea description. The central idea would be shown in a large brown rectangle. 'Idea Tweaks' would be shown as the title text in a smaller brown rectangle. They would be joined to the central idea (or their 'parent sub idea') via relatively thick black lines, and joined to other 'idea tweaks' via relatively thin black lines. When you move your cursor perhaps over an 'idea tweak' contrasting or incompatible idea tweaks would show as red. Each sub idea would have beside it a red and green arrow and the number of promotions or demotions it has gained. If one was to click on an 'Idea Tweak' they would be redirected to a page where the sub idea description is shown and any comments are posted which are related to that sub idea.
There would be an option under the brainstorm to 'tweak' which is where you submit your 'idea tweak'. You would be instructed to click on a parent idea and then write the title and description of your sub idea. Then you could join your sub idea to related sub ideas, and show which sub ideas are conflicting.
Sub ideas would not show up in idea searches, apart from possibly there could be an option in the advanced options for those who want them to. Neither would they show up in top ideas, recent ideas, implemented ideas either. Only on an ideas main page would sub ideas be displayed.
Does anyone have any improvements / problems with that?
If you are unsure about an idea, follow Craig73 and click the star button and come back later to see which idea tweaks are popular, and then decide whether to promote or demote.
Of course, as Craig73 said, 'idea tweaks' would only change small inconveniences or improve the idea, but the main aim behind the idea would remain unchanged. Maybe if 'idea tweaks' do begin to change the main aim behind the idea, the idea could be somehow split?
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nand
(Brainstorm admin)
wrote on the 27 Jun 08 at 15:10
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@ drian42:
If we take your idea, and we mix it with the idea many suggested about splitting ideas into the issue (rationale of the idea, why do I propose that?) and the solution (how do I fix that?), we could do:
The current "description" field is replaced by a rationale and a solution field.
On the idea page, user could propose others solutions to the same issue. A solution could be a totally different solution, so it would be directly linked on the issue, or it could be a modified solution of another user (i.e. a tweak) so it would be linked to this solution.
So in the end, solutions would be linked together in a tree model, and the root of this tree would be the issue.
As you proposed, solutions and sub-solutions could be envisionned in a map, and they could be voted up/down too. Dunno about a separated page for the subsolutions though. Well, AJAX can do nice things :)
I guess I will talk a bit about this subject on some mindmapping software forums, to see what is their opinion on this subject.
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drian42
wrote on the 2 Jul 08 at 04:44
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That's a great idea!
I think that would make the whole ubuntu brainstorm process a lot more interesting, interactive and productive.
I guess i thought that subsolutions do need to have a description, and i thought that the easiest way to incorporate this was to give each its own page, without cluttering up the mindmap. Unless you have some sort of flash thingy... :)
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drian42
wrote on the 12 Aug 08 at 06:09
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Any progress made?
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nand
(Brainstorm admin)
wrote on the 22 Aug 08 at 22:18
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Here you are! Ideas are now separated into ideas and solutions, and you can add your solution to an existing idea!
See a preview of the next update at http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com/node/24 .
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drian42
wrote on the 2 Sep 08 at 23:37
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Thats awesome!! Thank you.
It's great that my first idea made it so far :)
It's not exactly what I was thinking of but it has the same potential. I think the language could be a bit confusing, why would you have a solution to an idea? Maybe users could submit 'problems' and then their ideal solution...
Again, thanks! I realy think that this will help to improve the quality, depth and innovativeness of the ideas, or now solutions, submitted.
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drian42
wrote on the 2 Sep 08 at 23:50
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Actually, ignore that. The language i think is fine.
BTW.. is there anyway to edit comments? because if there isn't, there could be.
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I swear, I didn't see your idea until just now, but it's so similar to my idea:
"Give Brainstormers more ways to campaign for their ideas."
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11211/
The few comments it's received so far are nothing compared to the great comments and discussion going on over here. Glad to hear this idea has gathered some attention.
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sayakb
(Brainstorm admin)
wrote on the 31 Jan 09 at 11:28
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As this mostly has been addressed, tagged this as Implemented.
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